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PCN for being in a bus lane B&D, Query on when bus lane enforcement started
Marie_78
post Sat, 4 Aug 2012 - 10:50
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Hi, hoping for some help on the above.

I received a PCN dated 03/08/2012 for being in a bus lane on 17/07/2012 at 21.30hrs and they have pictures of my car.

I drive this road rather frequently and know that usually you can us the bus lane after 7pm any day and so I didn't think this was a problem. I was only in the lane for about 50 yards as I've since viewed the evidence on line as I was overtaking a car turning into a petrol station.

I am aware that the last week or so the borough has bus lane enforcements in place so you shouldn't use any bus lane at any time (I think due to the olympics even though were nowhere near any venues). But what they don't tell you is when these actually came into place. I've searched their website and cannot find anything so would like some help on finding this out. I haven't contacted them as of yet as the site tells you not to.

But I feel this is an error either as I'm not sure the enforcements had started by this date, if they had I would have followed them and not gone into the bus lane. Or because I was only in there at the end overtaking a turning car and therefore was of a minimal time.
I'd really appreciate any help on what to do.

Thanks

Marie.

This post has been edited by Marie_78: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 - 14:45
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post Sat, 4 Aug 2012 - 10:50
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The Rookie
post Sat, 4 Aug 2012 - 11:19
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PCN so should be in the council and decrim forum.

Please scan/photo ALL of the PCN and attach as well, a Mod will move the thread for you.


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Marie_78
post Sat, 4 Aug 2012 - 12:19
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Ah, sorry, wasn't sure if I'd posted in the right place. I've added the PCN notice as requested.
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The Rookie
post Sat, 4 Aug 2012 - 13:02
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No problem, the people with more familiarity of of PCN's will respond soon.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

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Korting
post Sat, 4 Aug 2012 - 13:36
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Marie,

I would edit the post where you've put the PCN on view and scrub out your personal details, the PCN number and the Car Reg Number. You should do this ASAP as Council officials and the Police are known to read these boards.

You can use something like paint to 'wipe out' your details, if you get stuck, let me know

Michael
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Marie_78
post Sat, 4 Aug 2012 - 14:55
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All done, didn't even think about that!

Ok, so I've just found this notice on the barking and dagenham website, so i don't think I have a leg to stand on. However I still query the fact that it's such a short area of the lane I used, particularly as the bus lane line stops a little while before the colour changes. (See attached picture from google maps.

22/05/2012
Special measures will be put in place to keep major road routes running freely during the Olympic and Paralympic Games.
The steps are being taken to keep routes clear for emergency vehicles, and to remove any potential obstructions which might cause unnecessary delays.

Bus Lanes, currently operational between certain hours, will be in force 24 hours a day from 1 July to 9 September. Signage will be put up in advance to make sure motorists are aware of the change.
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sgtdixie
post Sat, 4 Aug 2012 - 15:09
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Are here signs? Did you see them?
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Marie_78
post Sat, 4 Aug 2012 - 15:17
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Well usually there's a sign stating the bus lane can be in use after 7pm but when I looked there today there was no such sign (but can clearly be seen on google maps currently).

There is a sign about the bus lane enforcements, but it doesn't say from what date, just that they are currently enforced and it's nowhere near this particular bus lane, in fact it's in Dagenham, not Barking.
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Hippocrates
post Sat, 4 Aug 2012 - 18:43
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If the signage has been changed, as you seem to be implying, I would ask for the Traffic Management Order in pdf with all schedules and amendments and all still images of the contravention, and evidence of all their signs, and book an appointment to see the video. There have been other threads re this bus lane, some of them successful due to errors in their paperwork along the line i.e. if you wish to play the long game.


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There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

Donald Rumsfeld

There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends PATAS, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"
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Marie_78
post Sat, 4 Aug 2012 - 20:15
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I've just been reading up on the local council site about traffic enforcements, and their document states "Under current legislation, bus lane infringements can only be enforced using CCTV equipment. It has been proven that the enforcement of bus lanes in this manner leads to a significant reduction in bus lane infringements within a few months following their introduction." The PCN I received states "This alleged contravention was seen and recorded by a road side camera at the time stated".

Is this the same as CCTV or am I clutching at straws now?!
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Incandescent
post Sat, 4 Aug 2012 - 21:38
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OK, so they announced that bus lanes would become continuous, (24x7), but the announcement is not the law. For the new restriction to be enforced, the TRO must be updated, and the signs that indicate the restriction, else no offence has been committed. Road side cameras are the same as CCTV, but again, in order to enforce, the council must use "approved devices", they cannot just get a CEO to use a mobile phone camera.

BTW what makes the red lane in the attached pic a buslane, it looks just like red tarmac to me and nothing else ?

This thread needs moving to the Decriminalised offences forum
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Hippocrates
post Sat, 4 Aug 2012 - 21:55
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TRO=Traffic Regulation Order i.e. outside London.

TMO=Traffic Management Order i.e. London.


--------------------
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

Donald Rumsfeld

There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends PATAS, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"
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kevin73
post Sun, 5 Aug 2012 - 07:55
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Hello Maria. I think you and me in the same boat. i got to PCN respectively 17/07 and 18/07. i really don't know what to do. this is my day to day travel route to work as they suddenly change the signs for the Olympics i suppose. so do you have any ideas share with me? please let me know. I think we should appeal this case. you could email me on dell2be@yahoo.com if you find something to resolve this.
Thanks
Kevin

you are in the wrong forum so better to be changed. my one in the correct forum you could see my case and i got some pictures yesterday and upload them.
ta
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Marie_78
post Sun, 5 Aug 2012 - 08:12
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Hi, I realise this is in the wrong forum, but I don't know how to move the post unless I re-post in the right forum.

I'm going to ask them for the traffic Management order to see if they are in the right or not. The sign has been changed as when I went there yesterday it no longer had it's usual hours, however I don't remember seeing any notices that way about the change. I have since seen in Dagenham a notice saying that all bus lanes are in force 24/7 but I don't remember seeing one near the bus lane I was seen in. Kevin, do you remember seeing anything?

The red tarmac is outlined by a thick white line, however the thick white lines stops and turns into normal road markings, but there is a sign at that point saying the bus lane ends. I wouldn't mind if I had driven the length of the bus lane, but I used it only to overtake someone that was about to turn into the garage for those last few meters...

I'll update as I get more info from them when I appeal.

Cheers

Marie.
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kevin73
post Sun, 5 Aug 2012 - 09:06
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Hi
Thanks for the reply. I haven't seen anything until yesterday. do you think that the signs were correct? i might need to get some more photos today if possible. there were no date or time mention on it. at least it says any time i would not go.

kevin
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Marie_78
post Mon, 6 Aug 2012 - 09:00
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Ok, I've just been speaking to the local council and was told that I have to submit my challenge whilst requesting the TMO and other information via a freedom of information request which is likely to take more than 14 days, does this sound right??

Thanks again for all the help so far.

Marie.
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Gan
post Mon, 6 Aug 2012 - 09:12
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QUOTE (Marie_78 @ Mon, 6 Aug 2012 - 10:00) *
Ok, I've just been speaking to the local council and was told that I have to submit my challenge whilst requesting the TMO and other information via a freedom of information request which is likely to take more than 14 days, does this sound right??

Thanks again for all the help so far.

Marie.

No, they're trying to con you

The TMO is a public document. You don't need a reason to see it and it's an offence for them to refuse if you visit the offices.

Tell them to email it to you so that you can make an informed decision about the appeal.

If you ever ring councils, make sure you get the name of anyone you speak to and unless you record the call write down everything that's said.
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bama
post Mon, 6 Aug 2012 - 10:52
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QUOTE
The TMO is a public document.

Exactly.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/schedule/2/made

So outside the FOI as per :-
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/36/section/21

treating it as an FOI when it is not is common - the effect is that the timescale for the FOI exceeds the timescales for the PCN and so it plays to the LA as it ups the stakes and thus more will pay.
of course the LA won't be doing it deliberately for that reason will they...

complain to the ICO about the LA's mistreatment of the the TMO, their wrong applicability of the FOI when it does not apply and the real prejudice that the LA's error creates. quote both the regs above to the ICO.


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Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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Neil B
post Mon, 6 Aug 2012 - 12:46
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See my post 24 in the Kevin thread.

The signs were correct a week later. You need to establish when they were put there and the existing ones changed.

Whether legally backed by a temp TMO or not 17/7 seems like yet another example of overzealous, premature implementation -- not that this helps you much.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Marie_78
post Mon, 6 Aug 2012 - 13:18
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Thanks Neil, I did see your post. It's useful, thank you.
Planning to get some more info by the end of the week in regards to this.

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