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FightBack Forums _ Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices _ Parking ticket, contravention:27

Posted by: Cat22 Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 11:50
Post #1345462

I parked in on a quiet residential road in between 2 driveways, a dropped kerb either side. I was not blocking any acess to the driveway. My car is long so the bumper was slightly over the sloped part of the dropped kerb not the flat part. I have viewed there pictures which are very dark and unclear. I was given the ticket on the grounds of:
Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a foot way, cycle track or verge lowered to meet the level of the carriageway.

Could you please advise how I best appeal this.
Thank you

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 11:52
Post #1345465

Start by posting the pcn photos and a GSV link

Posted by: DancingDad Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 11:52
Post #1345466

Lets see the PCN, CEo pictures and a streetview link please.

Posted by: stamfordman Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 11:59
Post #1345471

use a pic site such as Flickr for pics.

Posted by: Cat22 Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:25
Post #1345503

I have added relevant pictures, can people see these?

Thanks

Posted by: DancingDad Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:39
Post #1345510

QUOTE (Cat22 @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:25) *
I have added relevant pictures, can people see these?

Thanks


Nope

Use an external site like Flickr and post the img links back here

Posted by: Cat22 Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 15:32
Post #1345549

Ok bare with me, this is proving difficult. I uploaded to Flickr but can’t seem to send back.






Posted by: stamfordman Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 16:01
Post #1345568

Ah our favourite code 27 borough, Hillingdon.

If you email me all the council pics I'll put them up. Did you take any yourself?

Email: marcb@csi.com


Posted by: Cat22 Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 16:07
Post #1345571

The pictures they have are very unclear, I do have one which is clearer showing how part of my bumper slightly overhangs the slopped part, I can post this if it’s useful?

Oh I see, this seems a problem in that borough then!!
I have posted one of them, the rest are only showing the parking ticket and the front of my car




My picture

Posted by: stamfordman Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 16:16
Post #1345575

Is that the council pic? It seems it is not a contravention as only on sloping bit. Hillingdon though deem the sloping bit as in contravention. But they is wrong.

However it is blocking part of the drive-in so there may be a struggle over this one.

Posted by: hcandersen Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 17:37
Post #1345592

On the basis of this photo, there could not have been a contravention at this end of the car and an adjudicator would be bound to find as such.

The front of the car is short of the crazy-paved part of the crossover and this in turn encroaches onto the sloped kerb as can be seen in GSV. Therefore no contravention and any obstruction/annoyance of resident is not a determinant factor.

OP, you need to focus on this end.

I would have doubts about the rear of your car, however. But this is for the authority to make, not you to defend, particularly in the absence of any hard evidence on your part in support.


Posted by: PASTMYBEST Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 17:46
Post #1345598

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 17:37) *
On the basis of this photo, there could not have been a contravention at this end of the car and an adjudicator would be bound to find as such.

The front of the car is short of the crazy-paved part of the crossover and this in turn encroaches onto the sloped kerb as can be seen in GSV. Therefore no contravention and any obstruction/annoyance of resident is not a determinant factor.

OP, you need to focus on this end.

I would have doubts about the rear of your car, however. But this is for the authority to make, not you to defend, particularly in the absence of any hard evidence on your part in support.


+1

Posted by: Cat22 Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 20:45
Post #1345680

The first very dark photo is theirs, the last clearer one is mine, so they don’t even seem to have clear pictures.thank you so much for the advice, I will write a letter explaining this and see how it goes.

Thanks again

Posted by: stamfordman Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 20:54
Post #1345684

File the challenge online if Hillingdon allows and keep screenshots/copies of everything.

It is good practice to post a draft here first.

Posted by: Cat22 Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 08:02
Post #1345770

Ok great, I will drag something this morning and post it.

Posted by: Cat22 Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 14:51
Post #1345899

Dear Sir or Madam,


PCN:
Vehicle Registration Number :


I received a penalty Charge notice on 6th January 2018 at 19:45 for contravention:27. Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, cycle track or verge lowered .

In accordance with the Traffic Management Act 2004, my challenge is that the contravention as stated above simply did not occur. The front of the car does not encroach onto the lowered kerb therefore did not cause any obstruction of the resident as a determinant factor.

For this reason, I look forward to receiving notification that the Penalty Charge Notice has been cancelled.


Yours faithfully

Above is a draft letter, can anyone give me feedback if this sounds sufficient

Thank you

Posted by: stamfordman Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 14:57
Post #1345900

I would change the middle part to the below and enclose your pic but wait for others.

In accordance with the Traffic Management Act 2004, my challenge is that the contravention as stated above did not occur. The front of the car does not encroach onto the fully lowered part of the kerb.

I enclose a picture showing that the front of my car was adjacent only to the sloping part of the kerb, which is not a contravention under code 27.

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 14:58
Post #1345901

QUOTE (Cat22 @ Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 14:51) *
Dear Sir or Madam,


PCN:
Vehicle Registration Number :


I received a penalty Charge notice on 6th January 2018 at 19:45 for contravention:27. Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, cycle track or verge lowered .

In accordance with the Traffic Management Act 2004, my challenge is that the contravention as stated above simply did not occur. The front of the car does not encroach onto the lowered kerb therefore did not cause any obstruction of the resident as a determinant factor.

no contravention occurs.For this reason, I look forward to receiving notification that the Penalty Charge Notice has been cancelled.


Yours faithfully

Above is a draft letter, can anyone give me feedback if this sounds sufficient

Delete the blue add the red. Obstruction is not a factor in the contravention





Thank you


Posted by: Cat22 Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 15:16
Post #1345904

Thanks that is useful feedback

Posted by: Cat22 Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 11:36
Post #1355875

So I finally received a rejection of my first formal representation stating that the mitigation was not sufficient to justify cancellation of the PNC.

I assume I now need to do a formal complaint, can anyone advise me please?
Thank you

Posted by: hcandersen Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 11:50
Post #1355880

Post their reply please.

Posted by: John U.K. Fri, 9 Feb 2018 - 11:53
Post #1355881

Please post up a copy of the rejection, redacted as usual.

Posted by: Cat22 Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 14:18
Post #1356881

Hi there, I am
Now going to make a formal appeal, if this is rejected can I then be liable to pay the higher fine ?


Thank you

Ok I am going to upload the photo of the letter
Thanks






Posted by: PASTMYBEST Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 14:34
Post #1356904

Jeez sometimes i think they should be shot.

This adjudicator defines the law correctly

2160311942

This appeal was set down for a personal hearing at 10:00 am on 17 August 2016. Neither party attended.
The Authority says that the contravention occurred because the vehicle parked past the point where the kerb starts to slope. This is an incorrect understanding of the law.
Section 86 (1) of the Traffic Management Act 2004 provides that (In a special enforcement area) a vehicle must not be parked on the carriageway adjacent to a footway, cycle track or verge where the footway, cycle track or verge has been lowered to meet the level of the carriageway for one of the purposes stated in the section.
This means that the dropped kerb is the part of the kerb which meets the level of the carriageway and does not include the sloping kerbs on either side.
In misdirecting itself on the key and fundamental point of law when considering the Appellant's representations, there is a procedural impropriety on the part of the Authority.
I should say that by applying the correct test, I am satisfied that the Appellant's vehicle was just over the proper dropped kerb but it was so marginal that I find it to be de minimus.
I allow the appeal.

Posted by: stamfordman Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 15:52
Post #1356930

Yes, they are unlikely to reoffer the discount at formal appeal but may well do if they reject as they must know they are on shaky ground.

Have you posted all the pictures - council and yours - that show the front of car and kerb?

Posted by: cp8759 Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 15:58
Post #1356934

Cat22 you should definitely not pay, for the reasons explained by PMB at post 24, you are virtually guaranteed to win at adjudication. Stick to your guns, they're wrong.

Posted by: Mad Mick V Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 17:13
Post #1356966

IIRC where you have a residential driveway they cannot issue a PCN unless enforcement has been requested:- 2140506235

Has it, or am I mistaken?

Mick

Posted by: Cat22 Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 11:14
Post #1357217

Great thanks for the information from the adjudicator.

As far as I know the parking ticket states the officer observed the car, not than anyone reported it.

I posted the clearest photo from their site, it’s pretty hard to even see the kerb of location of my car in their photos. The one I posted of my own is the clearest.

Is there a specific template I need in order to make a formal appeal?

Do I just email it back to Hillingdon parking just as I did for informal appeal?

Thank you

Posted by: stamfordman Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 11:18
Post #1357222

You need to wait for the notice to owner (NTO) to make the formal appeal. Is the car registered to you at your address? Check the V5C log book now to see exactly what address the council will use to send the NTO. Although as you've had a letter already the address is probably fine. How did you make your initial challenge?

Posted by: Incandescent Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 11:58
Post #1357243

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 14:34) *
Jeez sometimes i think they should be shot.

Too good for them as they compound the error by actually appending a drawing of a dropped kerb, then mark, wrongly, what the restricted part is. Really needs to go to LT, this one.

Posted by: stamfordman Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 12:00
Post #1357245

QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 11:58) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 14:34) *
Jeez sometimes i think they should be shot.

Too good for them as they compound the error by actually appending a drawing of a dropped kerb, then mark, wrongly, what the restricted part is. Really needs to go to LT, this one.



I've sent two messages to them about this page but they've done nothing:

https://www.hillingdon.gov.uk/enforcementofdroppedkerbs

Posted by: cp8759 Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 19:39
Post #1357461

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 12:00) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 11:58) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 14:34) *
Jeez sometimes i think they should be shot.

Too good for them as they compound the error by actually appending a drawing of a dropped kerb, then mark, wrongly, what the restricted part is. Really needs to go to LT, this one.



I've sent two messages to them about this page but they've done nothing:

https://www.hillingdon.gov.uk/enforcementofdroppedkerbs

That's alright, I've made a formal complaint.

Posted by: Cat22 Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 09:02
Post #1357625

I made my first informal complaint by email direct to them. Oh I see, so I need to wait then start the formal one. Thank you

Posted by: cp8759 Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 14:18
Post #1357775

QUOTE (Cat22 @ Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 09:02) *
I made my first informal complaint by email direct to them. Oh I see, so I need to wait then start the formal one. Thank you

You need to make formal representations, not a complaint. You can only make formal representations once they send you receive the Notice to Owner.

Posted by: Cat22 Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 06:12
Post #1358040

Ok that’s great, thank you for the help.
I will wait for the NTO.

Posted by: Cat22 Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 14:55
Post #1369167

So I have finally received my notice to owner. I need to submit formal appeal now. Would you suggest using similar words as the post detailing the adjudicator findings? I can draft something and add it here for feedback.

Thank you

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 15:03
Post #1369170

QUOTE (Cat22 @ Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 14:55) *
So I have finally received my notice to owner. I need to submit formal appeal now. Would you suggest using similar words as the post detailing the adjudicator findings? I can draft something and add it here for feedback.

Thank you


Yes also post the NTO, there can be errors

Posted by: cp8759 Fri, 23 Mar 2018 - 00:12
Post #1369315

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 19:39) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 12:00) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 11:58) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 14:34) *
Jeez sometimes i think they should be shot.

Too good for them as they compound the error by actually appending a drawing of a dropped kerb, then mark, wrongly, what the restricted part is. Really needs to go to LT, this one.

I've sent two messages to them about this page but they've done nothing:

https://www.hillingdon.gov.uk/enforcementofdroppedkerbs

That's alright, I've made a formal complaint.

It worked, see http://oi65.tinypic.com/2ql5tw6.jpg

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Fri, 23 Mar 2018 - 00:18
Post #1369316

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 23 Mar 2018 - 00:12) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 19:39) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 12:00) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 13 Feb 2018 - 11:58) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 12 Feb 2018 - 14:34) *
Jeez sometimes i think they should be shot.

Too good for them as they compound the error by actually appending a drawing of a dropped kerb, then mark, wrongly, what the restricted part is. Really needs to go to LT, this one.

I've sent two messages to them about this page but they've done nothing:

https://www.hillingdon.gov.uk/enforcementofdroppedkerbs

That's alright, I've made a formal complaint.

It worked, see http://oi65.tinypic.com/2ql5tw6.jpg


So from the OP perhaps a letter requiring consideration of their challenge in light of new advise.

Posted by: Cat22 Fri, 23 Mar 2018 - 10:07
Post #1369351






Thanks, here is the NTO

Posted by: Cat22 Sat, 31 Mar 2018 - 13:20
Post #1371101

This is a rough draft of what i want to email to them to represent my appeal, could someone please give me some feedback and should i include my photo?
thank you




My Address



Reference: PNC number, date

I am writing to formally challenge the above penalty charge notice

On 6th January 2018 my vehicle (reg number) was issued with a Penalty Charge Notice for the reason of contravention 27, parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, cycle track or verge lowered to meet the level of the carriageway in (road name and area). The authority says that the contravention occurred because the vehicle parked at the point where the kerb starts to slope. This is an incorrect understanding of the law.

Section 86 (1) of the Traffic Management Act 2004 provides that (in a special enforcement area) a vehicle must not be parked on a carriageway or verge where the footway, cycle track or verge has been lowered to meet the carriageway for one of the purposes stated in the section.


my challenge is on the basis that the contravention did not occur because the dropped kerb is part of the kerb which meets the level of the carriageway and does no include the sloping kerbs on either side.


Please find enclosed evidence to this effect, in the form of [should I include my photos showing where my car is parked just over the sloping kerb as included in this post].
For this reason, I look forward to receiving notification that the Penalty Charge Notice has been cancelled within 28 days.
Yours faithfully,

Posted by: cp8759 Sat, 31 Mar 2018 - 15:04
Post #1371112

For once I'm really confident we can get this cancelled at the formal reps stage. I've added a few things, also include a copy of this: http://i67.tinypic.com/4h87l3.jpg this https://www.scribd.com/document/375221729/Gmail-Complaint-Re-Misleading-Information-Published-on-Council-Website and this http://oi65.tinypic.com/2ql5tw6.jpg (I will send you a PM with the complaint reference).
-------------------------------------
I am writing to formally challenge the above penalty charge notice

On 6th January 2018 my vehicle (reg number) was issued with a Penalty Charge Notice for the reason of contravention 27, parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, cycle track or verge lowered to meet the level of the carriageway in (road name and area). The authority says that the contravention occurred because the vehicle parked at the point where the kerb starts to slope. While each case turns on its own facts, previous adjudications can be persuasive and I submit that the decision of Adjudicator Anthony Chan in appeal 2160311942 (Right Contract Services LTD v London Borough of Hillingdon) is relevant in this case:

"The Authority says that the contravention occurred because the vehicle parked past the point where the kerb starts to slope. This is an incorrect understanding of the law.
Section 86 (1) of the Traffic Management Act 2004 provides that (In a special enforcement area) a vehicle must not be parked on the carriageway adjacent to a footway, cycle track or verge where the footway, cycle track or verge has been lowered to meet the level of the carriageway for one of the purposes stated in the section.
This means that the dropped kerb is the part of the kerb which meets the level of the carriageway and does not include the sloping kerbs on either side.
In misdirecting itself on the key and fundamental point of law when considering the Appellant's representations, there is a procedural impropriety on the part of the Authority.
"

The council has rejected my informal representations on the basis that the contravention occurs if the vehicle is parked adjacent to the sloping part of the kerb, and has included the enclosed advice sheet. I should point out that, at the time the PCN was issued, the same incorrect advice also appeared on the council's website at https://www.hillingdon.gov.uk/enforcementofdroppedkerbs and a formal complaint was raised with the council by a member of the public under reference XXXXXX (copy enclosed)

The enclosed letter was provided in response to that complaint, this confirms the advice previously provided by the council needed updating, and the reference to the sloped part of the kerb has now been removed from https://www.hillingdon.gov.uk/enforcementofdroppedkerbs
It therefore appears that whoever dealt with the informal representations might not have had the benefit of this new information.

Please find enclosed photographic evidence showing my car was parked adjacent to the sloped part of the kerb, but not the adjacent to the part of the kerb that meets the level of the carriageway.

In light of the above, I look forward to receiving your Notice of Acceptance within 56 days.

Posted by: Cat22 Sat, 31 Mar 2018 - 15:59
Post #1371125

Thank you so much, I this information is really useful, I feel more confident that my appeal will win !!!


Posted by: PASTMYBEST Sat, 31 Mar 2018 - 16:09
Post #1371127

QUOTE
For once I'm really confident we can get this cancelled at the formal reps stage



If not a strong case for costs. Nice work cp

Posted by: cp8759 Sun, 5 Aug 2018 - 10:39
Post #1405148

PM'ed Cat22 and apparently the council caved in in the end

Posted by: DancingDad Sun, 5 Aug 2018 - 10:49
Post #1405154

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 5 Aug 2018 - 11:39) *
PM'ed Cat22 and apparently the council caved in in the end


Nice one

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