Crazy Civil Enforcement PCN, PCN received half way through my hotel stay Options

[IGS_89]

Hey, I will try to explain in as much detail as possible the events that occurred.

I was staying at the hotel IBIS thurrock on the M25 from March 25th until March 28th. My rental company informed me of a PCN from CEL on April 12th.

I received my PCN in the post with an issue date of April 24th and the date of the incident was for March 27th.

The way it works at the hotel is that you enter the car park, go to the reception and enter your registration and the length of your stay in night into the system (ran by CEL). This is what I did, and have done many times before staying at this hotel. I will now lay out the timeline of events. I know the precise times because of my location being tracked with google maps on my phone.

Monday March 25th 2018:-
20:00 - I arrived at the IBIS HOTEL, WESTON AVENUE, WEST THURROCK, GREYS, RM20 3JQ carpark.
20:05 - I signed into the IBIS hotel and entered my information into the car park touch screen at the hotel reception as requested by the staff. I entered my car’s licence plate number and the amount of nights staying at the hotel - This is information requested by CEL system. I was booked to stay for 4 nights (but actually only ended up staying 3)

Tuesday March 26th 2018:-
10:22 - I exited the IBIS hotel carpark
18:08 - I entered the IBIS hotel carpark

Wednesday March 27th 2018:-
11:08 - I exited the IBIS hotel carpark
16:43 - I entered the IBIS hotel carpark - start period for the PCN
18:49 - I exited the IBIS hotel carpark - end period for the PCN
22:45 - I entered the IBIS hotel carpark

Thursday March 28th 2018:-
09:46 - I exited the IBIS hotel carpark
15:51 - I entered the IBIS hotel carpark
19:45 - I packed my bags and left the IBIS hotel earlier than I had anticipated
19:51 - I exited the IBIS hotel carpark for the final time


Obviously it is crazy that I would get a PCN for half way through my stay, why not for any of the other times I stayed in the car park?

I contacted the hotel and they told me that it was crazy too, and apologised, but also said there was nothing they could do.

So I appealed it with CEL (foolishly) confident that they would see their mistake. On May 15th they informed me that my appeal was unsuccessful.

I then continued to appeal with POPLA, and this was the most frustrating part, because they would not deal with any information other than information relating to the 27th, and not the 25th which was the day that I entered my information and obtained a permit. So obviously I was screwed and CEL knew exactly how to play the appeal process in this light.

During the POPLA appear CEL acknowledged that I was a paying customer from a bank statement on the 25th.

I have made no contact with CEL other than when I appealed directly with them.

I have not had any letters since 20/07/18 which was a letter from them saying the appeal with POPLA was unsuccessful and I will incur extra charges if I miss the deadline etc. The usual guff. The deadline is 17/08/18.

Where do I go from here? I was going to write them a letter but after doing research this seems like a massive no-go right now!

Even if it turns out I entered my information wrong on the 25th I'd rather they showed me evidence for it than this game they're playing by citing their signage and terms etc. They won't even acknowledge the system they have in place where the permit's duration is defined on the initial day you enter the car park and hotel. The hotel have confirmed that you definitely do not have to enter your information each and every time you use the car park.


EDIT: One other thing to note, I live in Scotland, but only recently moved, I was living in Scotland during the period of this incident also. My DVLA information is not updated yet as I have been living between both addresses (my parents address) also my rental company provided the address for my parents house, which is where CEL have been sending my letters. Does this matter at all?

This post has been edited by IGS_89: Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 21:18

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[kommando]

Is your parents address in Scotland.

If you had come here first this would have been an easy win at Popla. CEL never get the keeper liability right and even more so with rental cars.

If Ibis own the car park they are lying, they are the principle in the contract.

This post has been edited by kommando: Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 21:31

[IGS_89]

Is your parents address in Scotland.

If you had come here first this would have been an easy win at Popla. CEL never get the keeper liability right and even more so with rental cars.

No they do not, it's in England.

And yeah, I wish I knew about this, it just seems so obvious that they wouldn't have gone against me. But then seeing them squirm their way through the appeal process with irrelevant information was so frustrating.

[IGS_89]

The hotel have since responded to me after contacting CEL. This is what their email said:

Thank you for your email below. Sorry for the delay as, we have contacted the car parking company after receiving your email and they have just got back to us this morning. We have tried to reason and explained the situation but they have advised that they are unable to cancel the PCN as it has gone to POPLA and they have won the appeal (as per the reply below).

“Sorry this PCN cannot be cancelled as its POPLA PCN and we won the appeal.”

The car park belongs to the hotel but is operated by Creative Car Park. Should you require any further assistance or information, please let us know.

Please accept our sincerest apologies for the inconvenience caused.

What does CEL mean by "as it's POLA PCN" ? The PCN is issued by CEL not POPLA, are they trying to pull a fast one here?

Also, if the carpark belongs to hotel does that help my situation in any way?

Regardless of what loopholes, tactics, etc I can use - I am clearly innocent and I'm not trying to get myself out of a PCN that I am guilty of. So there must be a reasonable way to counter this extortion. Should I take the legal route?

[nosferatu1001]

THey mean it went to POPLA and they won.
Tell the hotel to cancel it, or do they normally take orders from their contractros? ASk are they the dog or the tail

What legal route were you thinking of? Suing them for some reason?

This post has been edited by nosferatu1001: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 11:57

[cabbyman]

The POPLA decision is only binding on the PPC; you are at liberty to ignore.

CEL may well get a debt collector to send a few scary letters with red borders; they are toothless and can be ignored. What you mustn't ignore is a properly formulated letter before claim/action. This will need a full response.

Thereafter, CEL do often issue court papers but nearly always purport to discontinue at the 11th hour following a comprehensive defence. You then proceed to the hearing anyway and make a claim for costs and hope you can convince the court to award costs for unreasonable behaviour.

Search the forum for CEL cases and have a read of 2018 decisions. Completed cases may be the place to start.

With the help of the regulars, you will win this but it will require a bit of effort from you now and again.

[kommando]

I would be finding out who owns the car park, if it's Ibis then I would be making sure they knew they were liable for the actions of their agent and any further harassment or claim from CEL and you would be taking action against Ibis. A suitable 1 star TripAdvisor review of the threat of one focuses minds too.

This post has been edited by kommando: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 19:30

[IGS_89]

Guys, I've just had the most fantastic news!

The hotel have called me and informed me that they have ended their contract with Civil Enforcement Ltd due to this issue.

They are also going to refund my card £100 for the fine, and £35 for the car rental admin fee for processing the fine.

This hotel manager is going to get the best trip adviser review! In the future I totally recommend the IBIS Hotel Thurrock on the M25!



Thanks for all of your responses nonetheless

[cabbyman]

Good result for you but it's a shame CEL aren't being hauled over the coals for this. If Ibis are paying, CEL are quids in.

[IGS_89]

Good result for you but it's a shame CEL aren't being hauled over the coals for this. If Ibis are paying, CEL are quids in.

The manager told me that it was a central decision with Accor Hotels to give CEL the contract. Hopefully CEL will lose all of their contracts with Accor Hotels if this keeps getting noticed.

But I agree it would have been more satisfying seeing them being dragged over the coals too. Maybe a complaint to the BPA could help?

[cabbyman]

BPA won't care; it's CEL's members' club. All BPA will say is that you used their appeal system, POPLA, and lost. Tough tittie!

[IGS_89]

Yeah sounds about right. Thanks again for your comments mate, appreciate it