Parked on a Curb, signage moved after a year!, Selwyn Raod, IG3 Options

[zee aze]

Hi Guys

Back in the UK on vacation after a year working abroad and hired a car from Eurocar and then got a £55 ticket for parking on a curb ... lol!

Parked on a curb where there was signage to allow it, but apparently I was only allowed to park to the left of the signage as the arrow on the signage indicated.

I used to park in this spot regularly to visit family when I was here in the UK a year ago but after further investigation (googlemaps), it looks like the sign has been moved slightly forward.

So I parked in this spot as;

1. I didn't take notice of the sign as always assumed it was ok to park on the curb
2. There were obviously no spaces to the left of the sign, but a whole car space to the right of the sign - (questions arise why they have moved the signage to create this specific space
(maybe to catch the motorist out?)
3. If I had parked on the road, where that space is left (in the pic below) my car would have been an obstruction to ongoing cars.
2. No markings (white line box) on the pavement.


Do you guys think that I am bang to rights on this or have a chance to fight it, any help and advice (as always) will be greatly appreciated.


Below is the 'edited' pictures of
1. PCN ticket,
2. Google pictures from a year + ago
3. Pictures of what the council took.

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[L.Saroyan]

Edit: Based off cp8759's post below I have changed mine to no longer be misleading.

Google Street View Link
If the sign was in it's original location then you would have been ok. When it was moved the council would need to modify the 'resolution' to reflect that change. If they forgot to do that, or more likely they didn't actually mean to move the pole, and it was a mistake by their contractor, then the traffic order will still show the area you parked as being allowed.
'Resolutions' are made by the council under powers they have from Section 15(4) of Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1974
If the spot where you parked is still inside the part of the pavement where parking has been authorized by the resolution, this would give you grounds to appeal based on the sign being in the wrong place. No contravention could have occurred because you were parked in the area they designated. The fact that the sign was not in the right place doesn't allow them to give you ticket.

Edit Details: Incorrect references to traffic orders removed and replaced with link to Greater London Council (General Powers) Act

This post has been edited by L.Saroyan: Sun, 12 Aug 2018 - 06:29

[cp8759]

I have no doubt L.Saroyan is well meaning but much of the information in his post is wrong. Footway parking is banned in London by section 15 of the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1974, there is no need for a traffic order. The council must have lifted the restriction on Selwyn Avenue by passing a resolution under section 15(4), if the pole has been moved they must have updated the resolution, and if they forgot, there is no contravention.

I have made an FOI request, but in the mean time you should email the parking department and ask them (don't mention FOI).

[DancingDad]

That's the situation with off street.
Resolutions apply to a specified length if not the whole street.

And many do not have the pole in the right place.
You cannot be in contravention of a sign, only the ban (GLC Act) and only if outside the area claimed by the council.
When this close to a sign, it is well worth checking and if needs be, getting the tape measure out.
It's also worth noting that many councils seem to have trouble producing the resolution so they cannot provide evidence of the area.
Which means that the motorist with a reasonable query on position can win.

[Mad Mick V]

I always refer to this one which is a prime example of Redbridge not being able to find their derriere with both hands:-
2160356237

Mr Gentry appeared before me today for the personal hearing of his appeal. He gave evidence in the same terms as his earlier representations to the Enforcement Authority and his Notice of Appeal, adding further details to his account.

He does not dispute that his car was parked with two wheels on the footway in Fairway Gardens not far from its junction with Loxford Lane when this Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) was issued to it. He does not now dispute either that there was a sign on a lamp post in front of his car indicating that footway parking was permitted beyond that point. However he has challenged the Authority’s power to issue a PCN in these circumstances, on the basis of information which he saw on plans published on their own website.

Mr Gentry has repeatedly asked the Authority to produce copies of the resolution(s) which he argues were required under Section 15(4) of the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act 1974 (as amended) to authorise the exemption (and more particularly the extent of such exemptions at this location) from the London-wide ban on footway parking. Having first informed him that no such resolutions were required, and that they were entitled to simply rely on the signs, the Authority asserted in their Notice of Rejection that they had indeed “obtained the relevant resolutions to exempt roads from the Great London Councils footway ban". They have not, however, seen fit to produce any such resolutions for the appeal.

By way of background, Mr Gentry explained that he had lived for 10 years at his parents’ house just round the corner from this location in Loxford Lane, and that for many years vehicles routinely parked on the full length of the footways in all the streets in the area, save for where there were double yellow lines on the corners. He acknowledged that on this occasion he had parked where he did for that reason, and accepted that he had not actually seen the footway parking sign on the lamp post at the time.

However he has produced the plans from the Authority’s website, which indicate that they relate to a review carried out in 2014 of footway parking provision in the area. As far as I can interpret them, the streets marked in blue were those subject to review. The Key appears to indicate that dotted black lines indicated the Existing lengths of street which were currently exempt from the ban. That dotted black line appears to include the part of Fairway Gardens where Mr Gentry’s car was parked when this PCN was issued to it.

It is apparent that the review proposed the erection of signs which were in fact in place at the location when the PCN was issued, but what is conspicuously lacking in the evidence before me is any resolution by the Authority which puts those changes (between existing and proposed exemptions) into effect.

Without that evidence, which Mr Gentry has clearly and repeatedly requested, I cannot be satisfied that the point in Fairway Gardens where he parked was not in fact, despite the positioning of the signs, still not subject to a footway parking exemption. Consequently I cannot be satisfied that the contravention alleged occurred.
----------------------------------------------------Please STOP making FOI requests on footway Resolution issues, we have the above default position to rely on it's up to the Council to defend its position.
Mick

[zee aze]

Hi Guys - I have had a good read the thread and come up with the following response. Can I send this off to the council?

--------------------------
Dear Council,
I have parked in this location to visit family (on and off) for almost 10 years. The last time I visited them was 1 year ago and upon further investigation it looks like the pole (to indicate footway parking) as moved a cars length (to the left) to where it was before.

I know that footway parking is banned in London unless the council have lifted/updated the restriction under resolution 15.4 of the GLC act 1974 to state that you can park on the footway.

Can you please send me a copy the footway resolution for Selwyn Avenue for me to review and decide to appeal or pay the fine.
Kind Regards

--------------------------

This post has been edited by zee aze: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 16:03

[Purplepeopleeate...]

Hi,

Do you have any information on where or how to find the Resolutions for a certain road please?

Thank you.

[zee aze]

Hi,

I have updated the letter - can I send this off?

---------------

Dear Council,

I have parked in this location to visit family (on and off) for almost 10 years. The last time I visited them was 1 year ago and upon further investigation it looks like the pole (to indicate footway parking) as
moved a cars length (to the left) to where it was before and so I believe the officer gave the ticket based on the signage.

I know that footway parking is banned in London unless the council have lifted/updated the restriction under resolution 15.4 of the GLC act 1974 to state that you can park on the footway.
I have also reviewed Mr Gentry‘s successful appeal against Redbridge council (case number 2160356237) in which I can see similarities regarding footway parking and (Redbridge council)
having made no changes to the resolution 15.4 of the GLC act 1974 hence no contravention occurring.

Can you please send me a copy of the updated GLC act 1974, section 15.4 - for Selwyn Avenue for me to review and decide to appeal or pay the fine.

Further to this as the car is hired so can you please send this information to my home address please.

Kind Regards

This post has been edited by zee aze: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 18:34

[cp8759]

Change

Can you please send me a copy of the updated GLC act 1974, section 15.4 - for Selwyn Avenue for me to review and decide to appeal or pay the fine.

to

Can you please send me a copy of the updated resolution passed under GLC act 1974, section 15.4 - for Selwyn Avenue for me to review and decide to appeal or pay the fine.

[zee aze]

done & sent

many thanks

[cp8759]

Note to self: FOI 3192033

[zee aze]

I got a response from the council and below is what they had to say...

seems like a very generic response ,totally ignoring my request - its like they are totally against you and want you to automatically submit in paying the PCN, with their crappy scare tactics....fuming!

Point to note: the car was hired at the time - so is there a specific way in responding?

any advice/help would as always greatly appreciated.


(the other page is the council signature with how to reply - nothing relevant)



This post has been edited by zee aze: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 00:19

[cp8759]

If the car was a hire car them the Notice to Owner will go to the hire company. There is a statutory ground of appeal for hire companies, namely that the car was on hire and the person who hired the car signed an agreement confirming they accept liability for any PCNs, if the hire company challenges the PCN on this basis the Notice to Owner will be cancelled and a new one will be issued in your own name. Many hire companies will either ask you to write an appeal against the Notice to Owner that has been issued to them, or even worse just pay the penalty and charge your card. It is therefore of the upmost importance that you get on top of this and bug and pester the hire company to appeal the PCN on the grounds that the car was on hire to you at the time.

I cannot stress the importance of this enough because, if the hire company through ignorance or stupidity just pay the penalty, there is no way of getting the money back from the council. You would then be left with arguing with the hire company and while in previous cases this has been successful, Redbridge would still get to pocket the money for a wrongly issued PCN.

I would send something like this to the hire company, and follow it up with a phone call to confirm they've got the message:
--------------

Dear Sir or Madam,

I am contacting you in relation to vehicle AB12 CDE which I had on hire from you on such and such a date.

At the time the vehicle was hired to me, The London Borough of Redbridge wrongly issued a PCN for an alleged parking contravention in relation to this vehicle. A Notice to Owner will be issued to you in the near future in relation to this. As you are a hire company, you are entitled to challenge the penalty charge on the statutory ground that the Penalty Charge Notice was issued in relation to a vehicle that was on hire at the time of the contravention. Providing you do this, the Notice to Owner issued to you will be cancelled by the council and a new Notice to Owner will be issued in my name, at this point your involvement will come to an end.

As I understand it, the council would normally ask for a copy of the hire agreement, I hereby confirm under GDPR that you have my explicit consent to share a copy of the rental agreement with the London Borough of Redbridge for the purposes of challenging the Notice to Owner that will be served on you.

You will obviously be aware that you are under a duty to mitigate your losses and, providing you duly complete the representations form on the Notice to Owner and return it to the council with a copy of the signed rental agreement, your losses will be zero as the Notice to Owner issued to your company will be cancelled. I hereby put you on notice that I shall not be in any way liable for any self-inflicted losses incurred by your company. Your company is not liable to pay the penalty charge because as a hire company you benefit from the statutory ground of appeal outlined above, therefore if you chose to make a voluntary donation to the council I shall not in any way be held liable for this.

Yours faithfully,

--------------------------


Also I've had a repose to the FOI request which shows the footway parking ban has been lifted from the entire road, therefore it's an open and shut case now.

https://www.scribd.com/document/388672913/2...Footway-Parking
https://www.scribd.com/document/388672914/2...Footway-Parking

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 - 17:17

[zee aze]

That's brilliant!

Ill send that email now and get a confirmation from the hire company that they got this message.

Other than that, I suppose its a waiting game now, until I get the notice to owner - and then slap them with the footway parking ban being lifted.

[cp8759]

Yes you just need to wait for your own Notice to Owner, could take several weeks as the council need to send a Notice to Owner to the hire company, then the hire company has 28 days to challenge it, then the council has 56 days to consider the challenge, then they can issue a new Notice to Owner in your own name. I assume the address you gave to the hire company is still your current address, if not you'll need to make arrangements to have your post forwarded.

[zee aze]

I got a response from europcar and they want a £40 admin fee to transfer the details (nto) into my my name...

I can appeal this fee but I'm a stuck on what to say...









This post has been edited by zee aze: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 - 08:51

[cp8759]

Strictly speaking there is no appeal, the fee they charge is to cover for the fact that they'll have staff employed to deal with such matters. If you post a copy of their terms and conditions we can try and draft something, but this is an entirely separate matter form the PCN. Ultimately you accept the risk

The council should separately serve a Notice to Owner on you, post that up when you get it.

[zee aze]

I found this very simple T&C on the website... Looks like I'll have to pay the £40 admin fee...

[peodude]

That letter says that if you were not responsible then the admin fee will be cancelled. That suggests that if you win the appeal and send it to them then it will be cancelled.

[cp8759]

That letter says that if you were not responsible then the admin fee will be cancelled. That suggests that if you win the appeal and send it to them then it will be cancelled.

They unhelpfully only give 14 days to challenge. I would email them now to contest the charge, and explain that the statutory timeframe for a pcn is many weeks and ask that they put the matter on hold until the case is resolved.