PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Council parking PCN - no ticket on windscreen, Is the PCN valid / legal
buzzlight
post Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 21:41
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 14 Sep 2018
Member No.: 99,890



Have received a PCN from Derby CIty Council for parking on double yellows.

It was issued during a football match. I was no where near the car at the time it was issued.

I had NO ticket on windscreen or car at the time. Of this I am 100% certain.

The first letter was either not sent or not opened. I'm assumed it was not opened (sent to alternative address)

Original PCN was issued on 11th August. Today is 14 Sep.

Advice?

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 21:41
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
stamfordman
post Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 21:47
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



You have a notice to owner I think - this is the first letter you would have got after a windscreen PCN.

You can appeal saying there was no PCN on the windscreen and ask if you can pay the discount.

But look on council site and see if there are pics taken by the CEO (traffic warden).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
buzzlight
post Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 22:09
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 14 Sep 2018
Member No.: 99,890



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 22:47) *
You have a notice to owner I think - this is the first letter you would have got after a windscreen PCN.

You can appeal saying there was no PCN on the windscreen and ask if you can pay the discount.

But look on council site and see if there are pics taken by the CEO (traffic warden).


No pics on they're basic website, so will have to get a pic from them?
thanks
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Sat, 15 Sep 2018 - 10:22
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,060
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



The first letter was either not sent or not opened. I'm assumed it was not opened (sent to alternative address)

What in heaven’s name does this mean???

Post what you have rather than speculate about what you don’t, we’ll do the rest.

Anyway, on the day in question you parked on a DYL which, unless you fall into one of the exempt categories, is a no-no.

Let’s assume you do not. So what were you doing parked on DYL for some time ‘I was nowhere near the car when the PCN was issued’?

If you’re bang to rights on the contravention, then what are your preferred outcomes, escape on a technicality (which would probably only occur at adjudication with full penalty in play), get the discount re-offered?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DastardlyDick
post Sat, 15 Sep 2018 - 11:50
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,860
Joined: 12 May 2012
Member No.: 54,871



QUOTE (buzzlight @ Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 22:41) *
The first letter was either not sent or not opened. I'm assumed it was not opened (sent to alternative address)


Are you saying that you live at a different address to the one on the V5? Do you often not bother opening letters?


IMO, the best result you can hope for is to pay at the discount.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
buzzlight
post Sat, 15 Sep 2018 - 14:36
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 14 Sep 2018
Member No.: 99,890



QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 15 Sep 2018 - 11:22) *
The first letter was either not sent or not opened. I'm assumed it was not opened (sent to alternative address)

What in heaven’s name does this mean???

Post what you have rather than speculate about what you don’t, we’ll do the rest.

Anyway, on the day in question you parked on a DYL which, unless you fall into one of the exempt categories, is a no-no.

Let’s assume you do not. So what were you doing parked on DYL for some time ‘I was nowhere near the car when the PCN was issued’?

If you’re bang to rights on the contravention, then what are your preferred outcomes, escape on a technicality (which would probably only occur at adjudication with full penalty in play), get the discount re-offered?


The initial letter sent informing of the PCN was not seen by me. The car is registered at another address. The owners of that address either didn't see the letter, or the letter was not sent. I cant believe the letter was missed, out of character, so i'm assuming it was not sent.

So the first time I was made aware of the PCN was when a 2nd letter was sent, chasing payment. I would have paid at a discount if i'd know I was caught. The car was parked, next to 100's of others, at a football match. it was 18:50 on a Saturday away from residential area. There was no passing traffic.

So preferred outcome is pay at a discount, given a PCN was not fixed to the screen at the time, which I understood to be a requirement.



QUOTE (DastardlyDick @ Sat, 15 Sep 2018 - 12:50) *
QUOTE (buzzlight @ Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 22:41) *
The first letter was either not sent or not opened. I'm assumed it was not opened (sent to alternative address)


Are you saying that you live at a different address to the one on the V5? Do you often not bother opening letters?


IMO, the best result you can hope for is to pay at the discount.


I live at a different address to V5. Letters are always opened at the other address, which is why it's odd that the 2nd letter was the first time I heard of this.

I would have paid the day after if i'd known about it. I took a chance, I knew there was a risk. Making a driver aware of a PCN seems an important part of the process.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Sat, 15 Sep 2018 - 15:11
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



If you don't post what you have we can't do anything.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 13:35
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



As stamfordman says, unless you upload the documents we can't help you.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
buzzlight
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 16:31
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 14 Sep 2018
Member No.: 99,890



QUOTE (buzzlight @ Sat, 15 Sep 2018 - 15:36) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 15 Sep 2018 - 11:22) *
The first letter was either not sent or not opened. I'm assumed it was not opened (sent to alternative address)

What in heaven’s name does this mean???

Post what you have rather than speculate about what you don’t, we’ll do the rest.

Anyway, on the day in question you parked on a DYL which, unless you fall into one of the exempt categories, is a no-no.

Let’s assume you do not. So what were you doing parked on DYL for some time ‘I was nowhere near the car when the PCN was issued’?

If you’re bang to rights on the contravention, then what are your preferred outcomes, escape on a technicality (which would probably only occur at adjudication with full penalty in play), get the discount re-offered?


The initial letter sent informing of the PCN was not seen by me. The car is registered at another address. The owners of that address either didn't see the letter, or the letter was not sent. I cant believe the letter was missed, out of character, so i'm assuming it was not sent.

So the first time I was made aware of the PCN was when a 2nd letter was sent, chasing payment. I would have paid at a discount if i'd know I was caught. The car was parked, next to 100's of others, at a football match. it was 18:50 on a Saturday away from residential area. There was no passing traffic.

So preferred outcome is pay at a discount, given a PCN was not fixed to the screen at the time, which I understood to be a requirement.



QUOTE (DastardlyDick @ Sat, 15 Sep 2018 - 12:50) *
QUOTE (buzzlight @ Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 22:41) *
The first letter was either not sent or not opened. I'm assumed it was not opened (sent to alternative address)


Are you saying that you live at a different address to the one on the V5? Do you often not bother opening letters?


IMO, the best result you can hope for is to pay at the discount.


I live at a different address to V5. Letters are always opened at the other address, which is why it's odd that the 2nd letter was the first time I heard of this.

I would have paid the day after if i'd known about it. I took a chance, I knew there was a risk. Making a driver aware of a PCN seems an important part of the process.


pic attached

photo of PCN

This post has been edited by buzzlight: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 16:33
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 16:44
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



It's a notice to owner. There was no first letter - this is the first letter.

You can appeal saying there was no PCN on the windscreen and ask if you can pay the discount.

Did you ask council for pics?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 16:45
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



You have a Notice to Owner, that tells you quite clearly the PCN was served on the person appearing to be in charge of the vehicle at the time. Therefore there are no missing letters as this is the first letter that would be sent in the post. Presumably no representations or payment were made on the back of the PCN, so now the council has served a Notice to Owner. There are three possible explanations:

1) The council has made some sort of mistake.
2) A person unknown who happened to be near the vehicle purported to be the person in charge of the vehicle, and the CEO handed the PCN to that person.
3) The CEO served a PCN on you.

You tell us 3 doesn't apply, and 2, while not impossible, is very unlikely. So we need to establish what evidence there is that a PCN was served on a person purporting to be in charge of the vehicle, in the first instance I'd contact the council and ask for the photos and the CEO notes, if they spoke to someone or handed them a PCN, they normally have photos and notes to back it up. Don't word it as a challenge, make it very clear it is just a request for information.

But the bottom line is if they can't show a PCN was served, they have no authority to issue the Notice to Owner.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
buzzlight
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 20:46
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 14 Sep 2018
Member No.: 99,890



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 17:44) *
It's a notice to owner. There was no first letter - this is the first letter.

You can appeal saying there was no PCN on the windscreen and ask if you can pay the discount.

Did you ask council for pics?


going to phone them tomorrow to get more information

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 17:45) *
You have a Notice to Owner, that tells you quite clearly the PCN was served on the person appearing to be in charge of the vehicle at the time. Therefore there are no missing letters as this is the first letter that would be sent in the post. Presumably no representations or payment were made on the back of the PCN, so now the council has served a Notice to Owner. There are three possible explanations:

1) The council has made some sort of mistake.
2) A person unknown who happened to be near the vehicle purported to be the person in charge of the vehicle, and the CEO handed the PCN to that person.
3) The CEO served a PCN on you.

You tell us 3 doesn't apply, and 2, while not impossible, is very unlikely. So we need to establish what evidence there is that a PCN was served on a person purporting to be in charge of the vehicle, in the first instance I'd contact the council and ask for the photos and the CEO notes, if they spoke to someone or handed them a PCN, they normally have photos and notes to back it up. Don't word it as a challenge, make it very clear it is just a request for information.

But the bottom line is if they can't show a PCN was served, they have no authority to issue the Notice to Owner.


thank you, great info.
Yes 3 doesn't apply. 2 would be just weird, but as you say any notes would document that. There was nothing on the car (I checked carefully because I was expecting a ticket, I was on double yellows but comfortable given the circumstances - time of day, location etc ), and certainly didn't speak to a CEO myself. I was at a football match (my team got thumped 1-4 at home)
I shall be requesting more information (via phone of should a web form be used) tomorrow.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
peterguk
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 21:01
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,735
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Member No.: 14,720



How can you be so sure a PCN wasn't attached to the car? CCTV of car whilst parked, or simply assuming?

Whilst not common, we see cases of PCN being removed by person unkown.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 21:02


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 21:07
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



Well as CP picked up the NTO does say that the PCN was served to a person. But it may be boilerplate that's slipped into the NTO by mistake.

Council pics may shed light on this.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
buzzlight
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 21:09
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 14 Sep 2018
Member No.: 99,890



QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 22:01) *
How can you be so sure a PCN wasn't attached to the car? CCTV of car whilst parked, or simply assuming?

Whilst not common, we see cases of PCN being removed by person unkown.


Guess I'll find out soon enough if I get hold of a photo that shows a PCN attached. I should clarify - I didn't see or remove a PCN that day, and I was looking for one (and I wasn't drunk or high i.e memory impaired - worth mentioning as fair to assume some people would be after a football match).
If a pic exists, then guess its a hunt for CCTV in the area, of which I think there will be.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 21:33
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,265
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 22:07) *
Well as CP picked up the NTO does say that the PCN was served to a person. But it may be boilerplate that's slipped into the NTO by mistake.

I'm finding that odd as I've never seen that on an NtO before that I recall; only as an either/or.

QUOTE (buzzlight @ Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 23:09) *
No pics on they're basic website, so will have to get a pic from them?

As Councils go the website looks fairly comprehensive.
Have you looked for pics vis 'pay' or 'challenge' portals?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
buzzlight
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 21:53
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10
Joined: 14 Sep 2018
Member No.: 99,890



QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 22:33) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 22:07) *
Well as CP picked up the NTO does say that the PCN was served to a person. But it may be boilerplate that's slipped into the NTO by mistake.

I'm finding that odd as I've never seen that on an NtO before that I recall; only as an either/or.

QUOTE (buzzlight @ Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 23:09) *
No pics on they're basic website, so will have to get a pic from them?

As Councils go the website looks fairly comprehensive.
Have you looked for pics vis 'pay' or 'challenge' portals?


OK Ive looked at the website. There is a photo with the PCN on the windscreen.
100% wasn't there when i got to the car.
It looks like its not stuck on well, and it was raining. Clutching at straws?

QUOTE (buzzlight @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 22:49) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 22:33) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 22:07) *
Well as CP picked up the NTO does say that the PCN was served to a person. But it may be boilerplate that's slipped into the NTO by mistake.

I'm finding that odd as I've never seen that on an NtO before that I recall; only as an either/or.

QUOTE (buzzlight @ Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 23:09) *
No pics on they're basic website, so will have to get a pic from them?

As Councils go the website looks fairly comprehensive.
Have you looked for pics vis 'pay' or 'challenge' portals?


OK Ive looked at the website. There is a photo with the PCN on the windscreen.
100% wasn't there when i got to the car.
It looks like its not stuck on well, and it was raining. Clutching at straws?


image attached
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 21:55
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



QUOTE (buzzlight @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 22:53) *
OK Ive looked at the website. There is a photo with the PCN on the windscreen.
100% wasn't there when i got to the car.
It looks like its not stuck on well, and it was raining. Clutching at straws?


Councils are't all totally bad - an appeal saying the PCN wasn't there when you returned and referencing the pic that looks dodgy should result in an offer just to pay the discount.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 21:57
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,060
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



So:
You knowingly parked on DYL;
There is a photo of a PCN on the car;
You have a NTO;
The NTO is not required to state how the PCN was served - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...ulation/19/made

The odds are not in your favour.

Apologetic reps, didn’t find PCN, would the authority consider re-offering the discount.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 22:31
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,265
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 22:57) *
The NTO is not required to state how the PCN was served - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...ulation/19/made

Agreed, they don't.

but it does?
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 22:33) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 22:07) *
Well as CP picked up the NTO does say that the PCN was served to a person. But it may be boilerplate that's slipped into the NTO by mistake.

I'm finding that odd as I've never seen that on an NtO before that I recall; only as an either/or.

and, apparently, their own evidence suggests it wasn't.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 16:52
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here