TFL Congestion Charge But Not Registered Keeper Options

[wewin]

Hello All

I have an interesting one going on with TFL over the congestion charge at the moment.

My wife traded in her old car with our local Ford dealer last April when she purchased a new (to us) car. Sure enough, towards late April we received confirmation from DVLA that my wife was no longer the registered keeper. The print date on the DVLA letter was 18/4/18.

Now a slight deviation to provide you with some background information. On 13 April we sold our house in order to retire and travel for a year. Our plan is to build a self contained annex at my mums so that we can move in and look after her. We are using my mums as our registered address. All our vehicles etc are now registered at that address.

Anyway, at the beginning of August my wife received a TFL Congestion Charge PCN relating to her old car which entered the congestion charge zone on 29/5/18. We received the PCN as we are having our mail diverted from our old address. We appealed the PCN online giving the name of the Ford dealer who accepted the car in part exchange and also attaching a scan of the letter from DVLA confirming that my wife was no longer the registered keeper (dated 18/4/18).

We didnt hear anything more until mid August when we received another letter from DVLA thanking us for our representation but asking for more information. Namely a letter from DVLA confirming the date that my wife ceased to be the registered keeper. My wife rang TFL and explained that we had already done this and was told that this would be passed back to the PCN team.

We are away from home at the moment but today my mum opened another letter from TFL that arrived today saying that our representation had been rejected. Unfortunately I cant post anything up at the moment as we are on the road.

Now when I look at the PCN history online it shows the following:

26/6 PCN Batched

03/7 On Hold

06/7 Representation Submitted Under Review

[b]20/7 Representation Accepted

20/7 PCN Batched

27/7 OnHold

27/7 Representation Submitted Under Review

27/7 On Hold

11/8 Further Information Requested

11/8 On Hold

28/8 On Hold

10/9 Representation Rejected

Now to me the above shows that our representation was accepted (20/7) but that the PCN then went back into the system.

We have not given TFL our new address at this stage.

Any thoughts on this gratefully received.

Cheers
Wewin

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[PASTMYBEST]

We need to see all correspondence but next step is adjudication. They find on the balance of probability (the civil legal test) so a good shot your evidence will be enough to show you were not the keeper and get the PCN cancelled

[Neil B]

Your dates are adrift.
A PCN received early August then a case history dating back to June. ?

---

The 'owner' is liable and is only 'taken to be' the RK.
So when submitting reps in such cases it's proof you don't own the vehicle that is needed.
A change of RK only supports that rather than proving anything.

Proof, i.e. of your sale to the dealer.

[lashes1984]

Looking at the PCN history it’s possible that the PCN issued on 26/06 was issued to someone else who then made representations, which were accepted and resulted in a new PCN being issued to your wife.

If you post the PCN and Notice of Rejection it will help towards understanding why your representations were not accepted and next steps.

[wewin]

Thanks for the responses so far. I am unable to post anything up at the moment as we are away on travels.

I think I did get dates muddled as my daughter has checked the initial PCN and it was issued to my wife on 20/7/18. We did the online representation on 27/7/18 (I made a note on the PCN). We then received the follow up request from TFL (dated 11/8/18) and my wife rang them on 21/8/18 telling them that we had submitted the DVLA letter in our original appeal. Also, in our original appeal we gave the Ford dealer details as who we had sold the vehicle on to.

The interesting point is the PCN history. I hadnt picked up on it until now. They couldnt have issued a PCN to anyone else who then made representation as the registered keeper prior to my wife was my dad who passed away in 2016!

Also, my daughter read out the latest letter from TFL and they say that the registered keeper is liable for the charge and that my wife is shown by DVLA as the registered keeper on the date of the transgression (29/5/18)!

Cheers
Wewin

[stamfordman]

Your dates are all over the shop....

Did you a road tax refund? But the standard DVLA letter confirming you aren't the keeper should have been enough. It's common for people to get PCNs when they recently sold a car as the change won't have been registered at DVLA but without the exact dates of everything can't tell here.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 18:03

[peterguk]

...

This post has been edited by peterguk: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 18:00

[wewin]

Hi Stamfordman

To clarify the dates:

My wife changed her car on 18 April. The Ford dealer did the notice to DVLA online.

She received notification from DVLA that she was no longer shown as the registered keeper. This is dated as printed 18 April.

She received the road fund licence rebate letter from DVLA dated 19 April.

The PCN is dated 20 July for a non payment for a congestion charge incurred on 29 May.

We submitted the representation online on 27 July and attached scans of the letters from DVLA regarding the removal of my wife as registered keeper and the road fund licence refund.

My wife received a letter from TFL dated 11 August asking her to send a letter from DVLA confirming that she was not the registered keeper on the date of contravention.

On 21 August my wife rang TFL and informed them that she had already submitted the requested letter. They said that they would pass that back to the PCN team. She also gave them our new address.

Letter of rejection from TFL dated 10 September received (opened by daughter as we are away). In this letter they acknowledge receipt of our evidence provided but say that the DVLA letter does not show a date (it shows a printed date) It also states that DVLA records show that my wife was the registered keeper on the date of contravention.

I hope the timeline is easier to view now! If I was at home I would post everything up.

Cheers
Wewin

[stamfordman]

Well there must have been a glitch or delay which is feasible between 18 April and 29 May or soon after when TFL could have done the DVLA look up but not really as late as July (there is no time limit for sending congestion charge PCNs).

I thought you had to notify DVLA yourself if you sell to the trade or privately.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 19:15

[wewin]

It was done online at the dealers (we were there) including the registration of my wife's new car and the car tax.

[Enceladus]

It was done online at the dealers (we were there) including the registration of my wife's new car and the car tax.

Did you get an email acknowledgement? What date is it? I did last time I did this online.
Not that it really matters for a contravention alleged on the 29th May, since the DVLA confirmation letter is dated the 18th April.

Are you certain that there is no possibility of two PCNs clouding the issue?
And that the contravention is alleged to have happened on May 29th 2018? IE this year?

Whatever about how you got here the fact is that you now have a Notice of Rejection and presumably a form to submit an appeal to the Independent Adjudicator at The London Tribunals. This needs to be actioned asap. There should be an online appeal PIN code on the NOR, so you don't have to use the paper copy. So I suggest that you get an appeal registered asap. If necessary state that further information will follow, such as the DVLA letter. Send a scan or photocopy, do not send the originals. Include a copy of the DVLA email acknowledgement if you still hve it, as that will show the date the request was first submitted. You could submit a letter appointing your daughter to speak on your behalf. Ask for a personal hearing, you can always change your mind later.

Your case would appear to be pretty simple. On the relevant date you were no longer the Registered Keeper of the vehicle, It had been traded-in to Ford dealer xxxx, zzzz. attached is a copy of the DVLA confirmation, that you were no longer the RK ,dated more than a month prior to the date of contravention. This information and a copy of the DVLA letter has also been provided to the Enforcement Authority on July 27th as an adjunct to your formal representations and again on Aug 21st.

PS.
The acknowledgement email has the reg of the car in the subject line. And the wording "Confirmation of new vehicle keeper".
The email originates from DO-NOT-REPLY <noreply@buysellvehicle.service.gov.uk>

This post has been edited by Enceladus: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 - 16:58

[Neil B]

We submitted the representation online on 27 July and attached scans of the letters from DVLA regarding the removal of my wife as registered keeper and the road fund licence refund.

Whatever TfL are asking for, what counts is what they need and an adjudicator will now want to see.
I'll say it once more.

The 'owner' is liable and is only 'taken to be' the RK.
So when submitting reps in such cases it's proof you don't own the vehicle that is needed.
A change of RK only supports that rather than proving anything.

Proof, i.e. of your sale to the dealer.

As much as being RK does not necessarily mean a party is the owner, neither does no longer being RK mean you are
not the owner.

There's only one sure-fire item of proof and an adjudicator will likely want to see it.

[wewin]

Thanks for all the responses.

We will appeal to the adjudicator online sending what we have already. DVLA are sending us a letter confirming the date that my wife notified them that she had traded in the car and was no longer the keeper. I didnt realise that they work on a Saturday!

Cheers
Wewin

[Neil B]

We submitted the representation online on 27 July and attached scans of the letters from DVLA regarding the removal of my wife as registered keeper and the road fund licence refund.

Whatever TfL are asking for, what counts is what they need and an adjudicator will now want to see.
I'll say it once more.

The 'owner' is liable and is only 'taken to be' the RK.
So when submitting reps in such cases it's proof you don't own the vehicle that is needed.
A change of RK only supports that rather than proving anything.

Proof, i.e. of your sale to the dealer.

As much as being RK does not necessarily mean a party is the owner, neither does no longer being RK mean you are
not the owner.

There's only one sure-fire item of proof and an adjudicator will likely want to see it.

We will appeal to the adjudicator online sending what we have already.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 10:58

[Enceladus]

The replacement vehicle was apparently purchased from a Ford dealer as opposed to a private transaction. It's highly likely that the invoice/bill of sale mentions the old car being traded in as part payment. Phone the dealer and ask for a copy of the bill of sale.

Unless the old car was under about 3 years old with an immaculate service history it would have been immediately consigned to one of the car auctions. Or if a bit older and in good condition it might have been bought directly from the Ford dealer by a local independent car dealer.

Did you look for the email? That shows the date and time and the nature of the request to the DVLA and the transaction reference. The letter is little more than a postal acknowledgement. that the online request was received and processed. On the example I have the date of the postal letter is the same as the date of the email. I suggest it's the email that TFL want to see. You'd be well advised to produce the bill of sale to the Adjudicator as Neil B has indicated above.

[Neil B]

The replacement vehicle was apparently purchased from a Ford dealer as opposed to a private transaction. It's highly likely that the invoice/bill of sale mentions the old car being traded in as part payment. Phone the dealer and ask for a copy of the bill of sale.

I struggle to believe there would be no indicative paperwork at all.

You'd be well advised to produce the bill of sale to the Adjudicator as Neil B has indicated above.

Based on a good few recent adjudications.

But I have to swallow my pride a little at least, as the applicable Regs do place more emphasis on RK, compared to
parking/moving traffic.

[Enceladus]

I struggle to believe there would be no indicative paperwork at all.

AIUI the OP and wife are travelling for a year. So hard copy paperwork is not so readily accessible.

[wewin]

A quick update on this issue.

As we stated earlier we are away from home at present on our travels. DVLA have now sent us a letter confirming that my wife ceased to be the registered keeper of the vehicle in question as of 18 April 2018. Our son managed to scan this and the original letter from DVLA confirming the change of registered keeper date that was sent with our representation to TFL. He emailed these to us.

We went to appeal to London Tribunals online but needed a verification code to proceed. There is not a verification code on the TFL rejection letter and accompanying appeal forms. My wife rang TFL and was informed that TFL do not issue verification codes but that London Tribunals would be able to. She rang London Tribunals who confirmed that TFL do not issue verification codes and that all appeals need to be in writing via the post with the rejection letter from TFL attached. We explained that we would not be home to do this until mid October and would therefore miss the deadline for appeal. London Tribunals did say that if they were able to open attachments then we could email them with the scan of the rejection letter in order to register our appeal and explain that our evidence would follow. However, they cant open attachments so their advice is to wait for a further letter from TFL once the appeal date passes.

Cheers
Wewin

[Neil B]

We then received the follow up request from TFL (dated 11/8/18)
(29/5/18)!

Also, my daughter read out the latest letter from TFL

today my mum opened another letter from TFL that arrived today saying that our representation had been rejected.

10/9 Representation Rejected

There is not a verification code on the TFL rejection letter and accompanying appeal forms.

Phew.
So you have a rejection but no appeal code?
I realise you're away but that's unheard of.
Can you not get your family to post images here?

[wewin]

Hi Neil B

I have some of the scans but no way to redact the personal info. We will be back home mid October so I will post up all the letters and forms then.

TFL stated that they do not issue a verification code, which is required by London Tribunals.This was confirmed by London Tribunals so the appeal has to be by post.We did ask about our kids submitting the appeal and pp the signature but this will not be accepted.

We are going to see if we can get the forms and evidence printed off locally where we are at present and then send them by post. We havent had any internet and very limited mobile for the last week but back online now.

Cheers
Wewin