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Parking Eye - Time permitted to issue PCN's, date: 2/2/18 PCN issued: 23/8/18
Law Wannabe
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 20:24
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Hi guys,
Can someone please help with the time frame on PCN's. I have never heard of a private parking firm forgetting to send a PCN or taking 6 months to send a
PCN especially one as big as Parking Eye. The first date it came to light was a letter from Equita 3/8/18 and it had no information as to the PCN, VRM, and stated
that Parking Eye had tried numerous times to collect a parking fine but had not been successful so it was given to them to act on their behalf.
They have sent the PCN's which are issued 23/8/18 and date of parking was 2/2/18 and 16/2/18 without any arguing they reduced the PCN;s back to allowing discount for
early payment, they omitted to send the original PCN's.
The only reason this is of real importance is that the driver has parked in the same spot every week since February because he hadn't seen the signs and no PCN's meant he wasn't
parking illegally or so he thought. Would Parking Eye have been so underhanded as to have held back the first PCN's to earn more revenue? It is a company car and the parking time was
every Thursday around 11.30am from 2/2/18 until 23/8/18 when first PCN issued.

Someone rang the DVLA to ask when the RK details were requested and got this answer:
They have advised that Parking Eye and all other parking companies have access to an electronic system where they can check who the
registered keeper is for each vehicle, they do not call the DVLA, so there is no record.

According to Parking Eye website, their PCN's and the BPA code of conduct the parking companies have to request the details from the DVLA and have to have a valid reason
for doing so. I found this alarming if it is true, meaning every dodgy private parking firm can trace a car and find names and addresses whenever they want
without anyone's permission.


Any answers most welcome

Many thanks

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post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 20:24
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Jlc
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 20:42
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Yes, they can access the DVLA as long as they have 'reasonable cause'. (They may be audited so accessing at 'random' could be risky strategy if they lost their access!)

The DVLA do maintain who has accessed the records. (But would only tell the keeper)

If the PCN doesn't claim keeper liability on the reverse then it seems like an easy win at POPLA.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 20:43


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ostell
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 20:59
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You mentioned company car. Is this on lease? Could explain the delays.

PE do not invoke POFA if they know they've failed the conditions to use POFA. They also fail miserably with lease cars.
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Law Wannabe
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 22:30
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Yes the car is leased but the lease company RK has had no PCN's and they were the ones to call the DVLA.
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ostell
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 07:05
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So does the PE notice mention POFA liability on te reverse?

I don't quite understand your comments about contact to the DVLA. If the lease company are the registered keepers then how did the PCN get to you? Normally PE would issue a PCN to the lease company and they would give PE the name of the hirer and then PE would reissue a PCN to the hirer. Your tale does not seem to be following that route.

The person who called the DVLA either got the story wrong or they contacted someone at the DVLA who knew nothing. Even though the request is electronic a record of the request still exists.

This post has been edited by ostell: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 07:08
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Law Wannabe
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 00:01
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Hi

It is a company car so RK is the vehicle management company (VMC). The PCN's from February were not received by anyone.
The first notification was the letters from Equita 6 months after the parking offence. The VMC always pass straight to company who speak to the employee and it gets
paid. They manage lots of company cars and have never had PCN's not delivered.
Parking eye did not argue when the company asked for the originals to be sent - but the PCN's received were dated 23/8/18.
There is no mention of POFA on the PCN.
I was asking about DVLA because I am sure I saw somewhere that once they have requested RK details they have to send NTD within 28 days ??? if they processed detail back in Feb
then they are in breech.
I am just seeing if they are holding back tickets or just blatantly forgot to process.
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kommando
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 06:07
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They have 14 days not 28 days (that is related to a ticket placed on a car) for a NTK using ANPR.

Yes they have missed the 14 days and knew it when they issued them (but also forgot to post ?) as they left off the POFA info on the NTK.

So simple bogoff telling them they have not met POFA 2012 and cannot hold the keeper liable so need to chase the driver who you will not name.

They already know this as they passed it on to Crapita instead of raising a claim.

They had a spat of NTK they forgot to process early this year, nicknamed 'Golden Tickets' so search the forum for golden ticket .
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The Rookie
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 06:21
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This doesn’t stack the up, how did they get your name or address as the keeper, they can’t have got it from DVLA, logically it can only have come from the fleet management company?

It would be beyond imagination they sent a letter to a random UK resident and guessed the right one of 60M as the keeper of that vehicle?


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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ostell
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 07:55
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So your company are paying these PCNS, and then presumably claiming the cost via (illegal) deduction from salary.

So the VMC have named you as the keeper at the time? Again the question: Are they leased from the VMC?

The questions are to determine how to respond to PE, which bit of POFA to use.
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Law Wannabe
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 15:22
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So your company are paying these PCNS, and then presumably claiming the cost via (illegal) deduction from salary.

So the VMC have named you as the keeper at the time? Again the question: Are they leased from the VMC?

The questions are to determine how to respond to PE, which bit of POFA to use.


In answer to point 1 - yes the RK which is the vehicle managment company pay them to avoid being pursued for non-payment then a copy is sent to the company who tells the driver and the amount is deducted from salary.

in answer to point 2 - well this I am not sure because we have no originals and the PCN now is addressed to

Employee Company name (23) (7389237)
C/O VMC
at
the VCM
registered
address
POs Code

I believe they are leased as they are replaced every 4 years

in answer to naming the keeper - they have not as the Equita letters state:

Employee Company name (23) (7389237)
C/O VMC

so the car must be registered the VMC with just the drivers company name and account reference - I suppose this is how the VMC identify which company as they manage many more than just ours.
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ostell
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 15:55
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Would it be normal for your company to just pay unsolicited invoices and then illegally deduct that money from salaries when there is no permission to do so? But I digress.

So how does the PCN get to you, the vehicle keeper/hirer?

These PCN's for leased cars are usually very defendable as the Parking companies forget to send the additional documents that are necessary to make the keeper liable.

There are two fails here for keeper liability. The first, as has been mentioned before, is the failure to get the PCN out in time. 14 days if not windscreen ticket, otherwise 28 to 56 days for a windscreen ticket. If there is no mention on the PE PCN of POFA (Protections of Freedoms Act) then PE know they have cocked it up and are not claiming keeper liability. They are just hoping you don't know the difference and will pay up. In these case you just respond similar to this:

Sirs

Ref PCN xxxxx VRM yyyyyy

I am the keeper/hirer of the above vehicle and am in receipt of the PCN you issued. I have no liability on this matter as you have failed to meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to give the warning to the keeper, contrary to section 9 (2) (f) of the Act. You cannot therefore transfer liability from the driver at the time to me.

There is no legal requirement to identify the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc.



The other matter is that with a hire care they have to give those additional documents to the hirer/keeper when they send the PCN. They don't. In this case the following needs to be sent.

Sirs

Ref PCN xxxxx VRM yyyyyy

I am the hirer/keeper of the above vehicle and am in receipt of the PCN you issued. I have no liability on this matter as you have failed to meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to supply the additional documents mandated by section 14 (2) (a) of the Act. You cannot therefore transfer liability from the driver at the time to me, the hirer keeper..

There is no legal requirement to identify the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc.


So you can combine the two (but post here first for critique if you do) and send it of to PE. It will work as long as you don't tell them the driver.

It may be too late to appeal if the VMC have already paid but then I would be kicking up a stink when they ask you to pay something that you were not liable for. I would suggest you point you employer and the VMC to the protection of Freedoms Act.

As all the PPCs seem to make the same mistake in relation to rental cars then in theory no one should ever have to pay a PCN charge.

This post has been edited by ostell: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 16:09
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Law Wannabe
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 20:06
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WOW

Thank you so much

I understand what you are saying and even though this is for a friend I also worked there and as a field rep for 32 years and it was
always the case that the fine was paid and deducted so we never had a chance to appeal.

On PE website they have Q&A section and this is on it:

I wasn’t the driver, therefore I will not be paying the Parking Charge. What will happen?

Pursuant to Paragraph 9(2)(b) of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, the operator must inform the registered keeper
that the driver of the vehicle is required to pay the Parking Charge in full. In addition, as the operator does not know who was driving the vehicle on the
date of the parking event, the Act states that the registered keeper, if they were not the driver at the time, should inform the operator of the name and current
postal address of the driver and pass the notice to them. The Act then goes on to state that if the parking charge has not been paid in full after 29 days, and the
operator has not been provided with both the name and current address of the driver, then they have the right to recover any unpaid part of the parking charge
from the registered keeper. This warning is given under Paragraph 9(2)(f) of Schedule 4 and is subject to the operator complying
with the applicable conditions under Schedule 4 of that Act.


Many thanks
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ostell
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 21:37
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They are also lying. There is no requirement in POFA for the keeper to identify the driver, indeed the Act is very quiet about this. And the Act says nothing about 29 days, Its 28 days starting with the day after the notice is given.

If it was a fine then I suppose it has to be paid, though even though sometimes they could be argued but this is not a fine, not by any stretch of the imagination, it is a speculative invoice. Normally PE are good with keeper liability (apart from lease cars) but they had a spate earlier this year when they "forgot" to send out the NTKs in time. The 14 days requirement applies to the first NTK issued to the registered keeper, a copy of which should be sent with the notice to hirer. They have another deadline of 21 days after getting the information from the registered keeper to issue the Notice to Hirer. When the hirer makes the appeal make sure that it arrives on day 19 after the issue of the NTH so that they do not have a chance to reissue a compliant NTH.
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