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Residents Only Parking Charge, Advice on POPLA appeal disputing private parking charge please
Anthonyf
post Thu, 6 Sep 2018 - 22:59
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Hi Folks,
I found a windscreen ticket from a UKPC on my car a couple of months ago. I originally contested with the template appeal letter from the MSE Newbies thread.
UKPC have sent a letter rejecting my appeal, and giving a POPLA number, which I intend to use now.

I intend to send an appeal to POPLA with something along the lines of the following, and would be greatful of any opinions on my approach:.
(I’m the registered keeper, and have not identified the driver.)


I dispute the validity of the charge for parking in “Brocklesby Road” as stated on your ticket for the a number of reasons including:

1/ The signage at the entrance to the car park is entirely inadequate to convey any contract, and makes no mention of requirements for permits or any charge for parking, as shown in the images below.
LINK

2/ As residents of Brocklesby Road for the past 18 years, we understood the signage, which advises clearly “Residents Parking Only”, to allow the driver to park, as we have done occasionally for the past 18 years.

3/ We were not aware of any charge implied to park the car at the time of parking, and had not seen the two, newly erected, much smaller, unlit, and partially obscured, signs further within the carpark (shown below), or the extremely small notes on them about parking charges, or requirements for permits to be displayed, which are not visible at all from the entrance to the car park.
LINK


4/ Our parking has been Authorised by past and present residents of the surrounding flats and houses, who also have not been advised by UKPC of any change of parking conditions in their car park or any requirements for permits.

For these reasons we do agree any contract has been entered or breached and will not be paying the charge.

Yours sincerely
RK


If it help to understand our situation further:

My car was parked in a small car park less than 10m from my house.
It's nominally for the residents of the flats and houses that directly surround it, but those residents generally park in the street where parking is unrestricted, so that they don't have to manoeuvre in and out of the car park, leaving the car park generally empty and unused.

Occasionally parking spaces in the street fill up, so residents of the flats have advised us that if we need to we can always park in the visitor spaces marked with a "V" in their car park.

We've done this occasionally for the past 18 years that we've have lived here without problem, so was very surprised the car got a ticket on the windscreen.

On another tack - I’m pretty sure the car park itself is has multiple owners, as some of the spaces are included on the deeds of the surrounding houses, and I do not believe they have all been contacted by or contracted with UKPC, and from my reading of the forum, I felt this may have bearing on the contract they have alleged I have breached,

Grateful for any tips, recommendations of anything else you think I should add.
Many thanks for your time and consideration
Ant

This post has been edited by Anthonyf: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 - 23:00
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Anthonyf
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 16:28
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Hi I didn't get a chance to mail UKPC today unfortunately.

If i were to send them this letter now, asking for more information, do you think there would be any way I could get deadline for my POPLA appeal extended, to allow them time to respond?
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Redivi
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 17:19
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Not that dreadful letter again ?

POPLA codes are valid for up to six days after the official expiry date
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cabbyman
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 17:39
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And there is so much identifying detail on there, the PPC could use the POPLA code on your behalf!!!


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Anthonyf
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 18:12
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 18:19) *
POPLA codes are valid for up to six days after the official expiry date


So even with an extra 6 days I doubt I could get a letter away, one back from them, and then make my claim, however I'm certain enough that they will not have a contract with the council for that space, as the other neighbour who owns the other single space has heard nothing from the parking company either.

So how do we think it will play if I send my appeal to POPLA saying:

"It is my understanding that no contract to extract charges exists between the Parking operator and the the "London borough of Croydon", who own the space in which I was parked, as confirmed by the land registry here:

and here

There for I will not be paying this invoice, thanks"


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kommando
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 18:43
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If you make a statement they have to rebut it for the ticket to stand, its part of the standard POPLA appeal to dispute that the PPC has standing to issue tickets on the land and to insist the PPC show POPLA the contract. It would also be useful to add that as its is council owned land then it is not relevant land for POFA 2012 and so there is not keeper liability, so even if they have a contract they can only go after the driver.
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Anthonyf
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 22:59
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 18:19) *
POPLA codes are valid for up to six days after the official expiry date


Rats - I'm still writing up my my appeal, and it appears I'm goingt to miss the deadline as (I was away for work) - Are we sure about the 6 day extra validty?



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Anthonyf
post Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 00:00
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In the hope that I'll still be able to send it in, and drafted this:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LAKdkRK_7F...iew?usp=sharing

Let us know what you think
Thanks
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Anthonyf
post Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 08:36
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I've update the letter including an apology for submitting it late, linked here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ouvtNbatKO...iew?usp=sharing

I intend to send it in this morning so its not too late, unless anyone has any thing to add.
Thanks

Firstly, please accept my apologies for submitting my appeal the day after the deadline.
I have been away a lot over the summer, and was called away unexpectedly for work in the last couple of days, so have missed the deadline by a few hours, I hope this will not prejudice my appeal.



I was issued with a parking ticket on 12/07/18 but I believe it was unlawfully issued. I declined the company’s invitation to name the driver, which is not required of me as the keeper of the vehicle. I will not be paying the demand for payment for the following reasons.


The alleged contravention did not occur
Quite simply, the parking attendant got it wrong and the vehicle was not parked inappropriately at the time the ticket was issued. This is due to the fact that UKPC do not own the or control the space the car was parked in. Please see attached evidence, as proof of my claim.
Figure A, and Figure A.1 below shows the space the car was parked in, indicated with red arrows, and in Appendix 1, 2 and 3 the deeds showing that land to be owned by THE MAYOR AND BURGESSES OF THE LONDON BOROUGH OF CROYDON of Taberner House, Park Lane, Croydon CR9 3JS on whose behalf UKPC have no legally enforceable right to issue invoices.



Figure A : Showing the space the car was parked in marked with a red arrow.

Figure A.1 : Land Title SGL491530, and the space the car was parked in marked with a red arrow.


Noting also that:

There was insufficient signage
The car park in question has no clear signage at the entrance to the carpark to explain what the relevant parking restrictions are. This means no contract can be formed with the landowner and all tickets are issued illegally. Please see attached evidence, and images below, that I have gathered as proof.


Figure B: The only signs at entrance to Car park

Figure C: Enlargement of “Residents Parking Only” signage - showing it makes no mention of the any requirements for permits or any charge for parking, also noting it is unlit and not made of a reflective material


Mitigating circumstances
There are mitigating circumstances to explain why the vehicle was parked where it was and the charge should be waived for this reason.

1/ As residents of Brocklesby Road for the past 18 years, we would understand the signage, which advises very clearly “Residents Parking Only”, to allow a resident of Brocklesby Road, to park, as we have done occasionally for the past 18 years.

2/ We were not aware of any charge implied to park the car at the time of parking, and would not have seen the two, apparently recently erected, much smaller, unlit, and partially obscured, signs further within the carpark (shown below), or the extremely small notes on them about parking charges, or requirements for permits to be displayed.
These notices are not visible at all from the entrance to the car park, and would certainly not have been seen when parking in the dark, that night.

Figure D - smaller, unlit, obscured, sign in car park, with notification of charge amount in very small type

3/ Our parking has been Authorised by past and present residents of the surrounding flats and houses. Neither we or they have been advised by UKPC of any recent change of parking conditions in the car park or any requirements for permits.

To help you understand our situation in more detail:

My car was parked in the small car park at the end of Brocklesby Road, less than 10m from my house, 19 Brocklesby Road, as shown in the images above, and Appendix 1, 2 and 3 below from Land registry.

The car park is nominally for the residents of the flats and houses that directly surround it, who each have the numbers of their house painted in a space, plus several visitors spaces, marked with a painted “V” .
Until very recently, the car park simply had one “Residents Only” sign at the entrance, and no permits or charges have ever been required.

However the residents with numbered spaces regularly park in the street, so that they don't have to manoeuvre in and out of the car park, leaving the car park generally empty and unused.

Occasionally parking spaces in the street fill up, so residents of the flats have advised us that if we need to we can always park in any of the visitor spaces marked with a "V" in their car park.

We've done this occasionally for the past 18 years that we've have lived here without problem, so was very surprised the car got a ticket on the windscreen when parked overnight when the street was full, and the car park empty.


The charge is disproportionate and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss
The amount charged is not based upon any genuine pre-estimate of loss to the company or the landowner.

In my case, the £100 charge being asked for far exceeds the cost to the landowner (Croydon Council) as this is a visitors space in a residential car park, in an area of otherwise free and unrestricted parking, provided by Croydon Council, who also own the space the car was parked in. I therefore feel the amount you have asked for is excessive.

I also draw your attention to Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 under which the keeper of a vehicle can be pursued for unpaid parking charges provided that the vehicle was parked on "relevant land". You will find the Act on legislation.gov.uk. Paragraph 3 of Schedule 4 states "In this Schedule 'relevant land' means any land (including land above or below ground level) other than... a parking place which is provided or controlled by a traffic authority" and goes on to state "'traffic authority' means each of the following... the council of a county, county borough, London borough or district".


In closing I would also like noted that parking in the visitors spaces for residents of Brocklesby Road is fair and reasonable use of parking spaces in our street.

As we have the permission of the tenants and as a residents of the street, and, as UKPC have no standing to issue invoices to vehicles on this space, we intend to continue to use it in times of need (when no other street parking is available)

Should UKPC affix any further invoices to my car in this space, we intend to ignore them and or pursue them legally for causing nuisance to us, unless and until such time as their legal right to issue invoices on that space changes.
Should there legal standing change for any reason, I will expect fair notice of such change to be provided to me by letter in advance.

This post has been edited by Anthonyf: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 10:43
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ostell
post Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 10:11
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Don't mention the lateness! They may feel piqued and refuse to read it.

Remove the indication that you were the driver as you seem to be relying on POFA

Insert your pictures in line so that they can't miss them. Pre-estimate of loss is not good, Beavis killed that.
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The Rookie
post Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 10:19
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QUOTE (kommando @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 19:43) *
It would also be useful to add that as its is council owned land then it is not relevant land for POFA 2012

As that's BS, then no, it may or may not be relevant land so I'd ask them to prove it.


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Anthonyf
post Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 10:34
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QUOTE (ostell @ Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 11:11) *
Don't mention the lateness! They may feel piqued and refuse to read it.

Remove the indication that you were the driver as you seem to be relying on POFA

Insert your pictures in line so that they can't miss them. Pre-estimate of loss is not good, Beavis killed that.


The POPLA website says this about lateness:
Can I submit an appeal late?
In exceptional circumstances, the assessor may be able to extend the 28 day time limit. If you are submitting your appeal late you must state fully and clearly the reasons for the delay. You must also provide any evidence you have to justify the delay, along with your appeal. The assessor will then decide whether the appeal can still be considered.

So I'll move my apology to the end.

I was not the driver, and thought I'd be careful to avoid that being implied anywhere - I'll have another read, but if theres an obvious place youve seen, please let me know.
Pictures are in line in the pdf that I linked to.

Thanks for your help ostell
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ostell
post Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 10:39
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UKPC do not own the or control the space I was parked in.

Helps to have numbered paragraphs
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Anthonyf
post Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 10:39
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 11:19) *
QUOTE (kommando @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 19:43) *
It would also be useful to add that as its is council owned land then it is not relevant land for POFA 2012

As that's BS, then no, it may or may not be relevant land so I'd ask them to prove it.


I have added a bit to the end of the paragraph about Relevant land - does this sound ok?

I also draw your attention to Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 under which the keeper of a vehicle can be pursued for unpaid parking charges provided that the vehicle was parked on "relevant land". You will find the Act on legislation.gov.uk. Paragraph 3 of Schedule 4 states "In this Schedule 'relevant land' means any land (including land above or below ground level) other than... a parking place which is provided or controlled by a traffic authority" and goes on to state "'traffic authority' means each of the following... the council of a county, county borough, London borough or district".

I believe it clear that this space is not “Relevant Land” as defined within the Act above, hence POFA does not apply in this case, and the registered keeper cannot be pursued for charges anyway, as I was not the driver.

This post has been edited by Anthonyf: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 10:45
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Anthonyf
post Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 12:00
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OK Thansk for all your help - we've spent far too long on this so I'm sending it in - final draft saved here for reference:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ouvtNbatKO...iew?usp=sharing

This post has been edited by Anthonyf: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 12:44
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nigelbb
post Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 13:08
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QUOTE (Anthonyf @ Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 11:34) *
The POPLA website says this about lateness:
Can I submit an appeal late?
In exceptional circumstances, the assessor may be able to extend the 28 day time limit. If you are submitting your appeal late you must state fully and clearly the reasons for the delay. You must also provide any evidence you have to justify the delay, along with your appeal. The assessor will then decide whether the appeal can still be considered.

So I'll move my apology to the end.

FFS Don't put any apology for lateness in otherwise it will just give the POPLA assessor something to latch onto & immediately reject the appeal.

If you can submit your appeal through the web portal then it's been accepted & there is no question of it being late. If it's too late then you won't be able to submit it.


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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Anthonyf
post Fri, 28 Sep 2018 - 09:06
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Hi Folks

Couple of updates on this one:

I received an email from POPLA a couple of days ago saying: "...due to a technical error your appeal did not fully load onto the appeal system and has just been located in our failed upload folder.
The appeal has now been fully set up on our system and will progress through the appeal process as normal. As a result of the system error the appeal has had to be set up as a postal appeal manually and you may receive correspondence through the post from time to time from POPLA and the operator..."

And on the same day I got a letter in the post from a debt collection agency DRP, asking for £160 by 09/10/18 , or they will recommend their client begin court proceedings.

The letter includes a line saying "if we don't hear from you, we'll take it to mean that you agree you're liable for it"


Am I safe to ignore this rubbish?
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The Slithy Tove
post Fri, 28 Sep 2018 - 09:23
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QUOTE (Anthonyf @ Fri, 28 Sep 2018 - 10:06) *
The letter includes a line saying "if we don't hear from you, we'll take it to mean that you agree you're liable for it"

They can say what they like. Legally, however, they can make no such assumption.

Meanwhile complain to the BPA that the parking company are pursuing the disputed/alleged debt even while the appeal process is ongoing, which is contrary to their code of practice.

This post has been edited by The Slithy Tove: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 - 09:23
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 28 Sep 2018 - 10:38
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Ignore DRP. ALways. Useless wastes of space.
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Anthonyf
post Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 08:32
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Hi Peeps
UKPC have responded to my appeal. This is their letter to Popla:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_VbrzA5GWO...iew?usp=sharing
it states
"Please see attached plan which shows that the appellant was parked within UKPC boundaries... Please be advised that the appellant has not provided anything to show his ownership of the land"

However, I did show that they do not own the land in my appeal letter, shown here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vf8xqQKc4d...iew?usp=sharing


And a "witness statement", simply signed by a "Property manager"

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xwlSA07lxC...iew?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/16epSEe4lN3...iew?usp=sharing

I don't feel like they answered my appeal at all, so feel fairly confidant my appeal should be upheld.

Is there anything else I should do at this stage?

Many thanks

This post has been edited by Anthonyf: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 22:13
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ostell
post Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 09:28
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Apart from the fact that the landowner is not actually identified the witness statement states that the are allowed to issue parking charges but that's it. No further action is permitted.

So who is that company that signed that boundary map? It looks like a residents association, and who says they have the right to create a contract? Can they show the chain back to the landowner.

They have that witness statement from "the landowner" and then present part of the alleged contract, "the map", signed by the same person on behalf of "brocksler residents co ltd".

So it looks as though they have a contract with the residents association, who are probably not the landowner and cannot show a chain of contracts to the landowner, and are trying to hide the fact that they do not have, as required by the BPA, a contract with the landowner or their agent.

State that a witness statement from a signatory of the residents association is insufficient to show a contract with the landowner or agent.
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