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Residents Only Parking Charge, Advice on POPLA appeal disputing private parking charge please
Anthonyf
post Thu, 6 Sep 2018 - 22:59
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Hi Folks,
I found a windscreen ticket from a UKPC on my car a couple of months ago. I originally contested with the template appeal letter from the MSE Newbies thread.
UKPC have sent a letter rejecting my appeal, and giving a POPLA number, which I intend to use now.

I intend to send an appeal to POPLA with something along the lines of the following, and would be greatful of any opinions on my approach:.
(I’m the registered keeper, and have not identified the driver.)


I dispute the validity of the charge for parking in “Brocklesby Road” as stated on your ticket for the a number of reasons including:

1/ The signage at the entrance to the car park is entirely inadequate to convey any contract, and makes no mention of requirements for permits or any charge for parking, as shown in the images below.
LINK

2/ As residents of Brocklesby Road for the past 18 years, we understood the signage, which advises clearly “Residents Parking Only”, to allow the driver to park, as we have done occasionally for the past 18 years.

3/ We were not aware of any charge implied to park the car at the time of parking, and had not seen the two, newly erected, much smaller, unlit, and partially obscured, signs further within the carpark (shown below), or the extremely small notes on them about parking charges, or requirements for permits to be displayed, which are not visible at all from the entrance to the car park.
LINK


4/ Our parking has been Authorised by past and present residents of the surrounding flats and houses, who also have not been advised by UKPC of any change of parking conditions in their car park or any requirements for permits.

For these reasons we do agree any contract has been entered or breached and will not be paying the charge.

Yours sincerely
RK


If it help to understand our situation further:

My car was parked in a small car park less than 10m from my house.
It's nominally for the residents of the flats and houses that directly surround it, but those residents generally park in the street where parking is unrestricted, so that they don't have to manoeuvre in and out of the car park, leaving the car park generally empty and unused.

Occasionally parking spaces in the street fill up, so residents of the flats have advised us that if we need to we can always park in the visitor spaces marked with a "V" in their car park.

We've done this occasionally for the past 18 years that we've have lived here without problem, so was very surprised the car got a ticket on the windscreen.

On another tack - I’m pretty sure the car park itself is has multiple owners, as some of the spaces are included on the deeds of the surrounding houses, and I do not believe they have all been contacted by or contracted with UKPC, and from my reading of the forum, I felt this may have bearing on the contract they have alleged I have breached,

Grateful for any tips, recommendations of anything else you think I should add.
Many thanks for your time and consideration
Ant

This post has been edited by Anthonyf: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 - 23:00
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post Thu, 6 Sep 2018 - 22:59
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SchoolRunMum
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 01:30
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That's not a POPLA appeal, it is weak and will lose, IMHO.

It also ignores the slam dunk winning point that (hopefully) UKPC forgot to send you a NTK in the post. why do you think there was a tactic to 'appeal as registered keeper on day 26'? the reason is explained in the NEWBIES thread but you have overlooked the whole point!

If you used the MSE template appeal from the NEWBIES thread there, you only had to go back and read post #3 of it for POPLA templates.
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Anthonyf
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 07:17
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Thanks for the feedback SchoolRunMum, unfortunately they did send an NTK letter, just before the appeal rejection letter.
I felt my case was pretty clear and obviously unjust, so didn't think I would need to put in lots of extra detail, but I'll have another look through the forums and template letters, and redraft it.
Any other advice welcome obviously
Thanks
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ostell
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 07:25
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OK so they sent a NTK. WHere is it? Have you contacted the DVLA to see if they got your address for the NTK from them? SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gsi.gov.uk
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 08:36
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POPLA cares not one jot about "unjust". You have to explain why it was not issued correctly, or why the keeper has no liability. They care about nothign else.
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Anthonyf
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 15:41
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My NTK page 1 Page 2 , and Rejection of Appeal letter linked here for reference.

They say they contacted DVLA for my details in the NTK.

Will redraft the POPLA appeal on the weekend
Thanks for the help
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ostell
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 16:22
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QUOTE (Anthonyf @ Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 16:41) *
They say they contacted DVLA for my details in the NTK.


They also lie. Ask the DVLA yourself. It's just an email away.
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Eljayjay
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 16:35
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Do you know any of the residents well enough to believe that they would help you?

This post has been edited by Eljayjay: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 16:35
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Anthonyf
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 17:50
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Ok - have sent DVLA a request.
Am friendly with the neighbours, but would be reluctant to ask too much of them or put them out in anyway, would prefer to sort it myself if i can.
Thanks
Anthony
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Anthonyf
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 19:40
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Looking back on this, I sent the MSE Newbies template form around the 26th day after windscreen ticket, at which point I had not received a NTK in the post.

Then the NTK arrived a few days later, and few days after that their rejection of my original appeal arrived.

I had considered sending them the appeal to NTK as per Parking Cowboy, before they rejected my appeal, as this appeared to give me more information to take to POPLA appeal, including about who actually owns the land.
Is there any value in me sending that letter to UKPC now, or does it have to go to POPLA now do you think?

I'm pretty sure the freehold of space we were parked in was owned by some different to the rest of the carpark, and doubt they have a contract with them, is this relevant?

This post has been edited by Anthonyf: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 22:21
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Eljayjay
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 19:46
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It is extremely relevant if you are right.
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Anthonyf
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 22:27
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I believe that space is included within the freehold of an house owned by the council (the council bought it from my neighbour a few years ago), as opposed to the rest of the car park which I believe is owned and leased by a management company.

Whats the best way to make UKPC prove they have the right to issue tickets for that space?
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Eljayjay
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 23:53
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See what the Land Registry has to offer, but use only the gov.uk site.
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Anthonyf
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 08:25
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Land registry will confirm that the council own that space (I'm pretty certain of this already as my neighbour sold it to them), but won't tell if any contract exists between council and UKPC though, will it?
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Slapdash
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 08:31
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There is a difference between pretty certain and certain. Whilst the council may have bought it previously off your neighbour you have no real idea what they may have done with it since.

It may he useful to try and find out.
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Eljayjay
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 09:09
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What Slapdash has to say is, of course, true.

In addition, if you find out who owns the land now, you can ask them whether they have entered into a contract with the parking contractor.

You may be surprised how often parking contractors' contracts are not made with the right persons.

All of this is academic unless and until you do some research.
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Anthonyf
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 10:53
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This is the freehold for most of the carpark, and leases for parking spaces:
Car park - note the areas top right on the plan marked SGL491530

This is the freehold for the space I was parked in. Its owned by Croydon council
SGL491530


plan showing space I was in, top right

I need to appeal next week, and knowing the council, doubt I will get answers to enquiries any time soon, so whats the next best way of finding out about their contract would you say?

This post has been edited by Anthonyf: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 11:19
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Eljayjay
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 11:31
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Depending on how long you have to make your appeal to POPLA, I would be inclined to write to the parking operator to ask for a copy of its contract with the owner or occupier of the land and its site plan (giving sufficient time for the parking operator to reply and for you to submit your appeal).

If the parking operator provides the documents and the contract is with someone other than the Council, that would seem to be the basis of your appeal. If the parking operator fails to respond, I would make the basis of your appeal "I do not believe the parking operator has a contract with the owner or occupier of the land and, despite asking the parking operator for evidence of the contract and its site plan, the parking operator has failed to respond to that request".

If you have not revealed the driver's identity, something else that could play a part in this is Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 under which the keeper of a vehicle can be pursued for unpaid parking charges provided that the vehicle was parked on "relevant land". You will find the Act on legislation.gov.uk. Paragragraph 3 of Schedule 4 states "In this Schedule 'relevant land' means any land (including land above or below ground level) other than... a parking place which is provided or controlled by a traffic authority" and goes on to state "'traffic authority' means each of the following... the council of a county, county borough, London borough or district".

Come on you Eagles!
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Eljayjay
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 12:47
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In case you do not already know, if you send letters about parking issues, use first-class post, hand them in at a Post Office counter and request a free certificate of posting.
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Anthonyf
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 18:52
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Thanks Eljayjay, I've only got till Thursday to appeal to Popla - (they say 28 days from 16th August on my rejection letter).
I could email them on Monday, but maybe thats not a reasonable amount of time to respond?

I have not revealed the drivers identity, but I imagine this issue with your second point would be if the council would actually be considered to "provided or controlled" that parking space in this case.

You know its true - we're red and blue smile.gif
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