PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Is this PCN legitimate?
Zazaa
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 11:57
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 82
Joined: 13 Feb 2013
Member No.: 59,939



Brother has been parking here regularly for quite some time. Wanted to confirm if this is legitimate and if it is to be paid or not.

Had a look at their picture that is available to view online, but it's very unclear, so cannot read the notice. Brother said there were no road markings or yellow lines there.





Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
3 Pages V  < 1 2 3 >  
Start new topic
Replies (20 - 39)
Advertisement
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 11:57
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Zazaa
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 10:09
Post #21


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 82
Joined: 13 Feb 2013
Member No.: 59,939



QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 10:34) *
QUOTE (Zazaa @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 10:27) *
Hello Everyone,


So, I'm still not sure what I'm meant to do?


He says the post code is RM20 4BL-apparently he's been parking there for 5 months with his permit, and surprised it was issued at 3am.

QUOTE (Eljayjay @ Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 15:23) *
Is this a residential parking case?

Is the driver or keeper leaseholder or tenant at the development where this car park is situated?



yes, residential. My brother is a lodger at the place.

A "lodger"... Does your brother have a lease or a rental agreement?



He pays rent but is a lodger- the landlord lives with him.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Umkomaas
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 10:28
Post #22


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,743
Joined: 8 Feb 2013
Member No.: 59,842



Not many can now comply with the first requirement of the signage - 'A valid UKCPM permit & tax disc must be clearly displayed in the front windscreen at all times'.
Lots of people at risk of falling foul of that 'contract' now!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Zazaa
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 10:39
Post #23


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 82
Joined: 13 Feb 2013
Member No.: 59,939



QUOTE (Umkomaas @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 11:28) *
Not many can now comply with the first requirement of the signage - 'A valid UKCPM permit & tax disc must be clearly displayed in the front windscreen at all times'.
Lots of people at risk of falling foul of that 'contract' now!



Yes, because isn't vehicle taxation now done online?

This is a bit confusing, in terms of, what to do. Should it be paid then?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 10:44
Post #24


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,309
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



It's an impossible term to comply with. But it's unlikely to have any material difference unless they were pursuing on that basis...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Umkomaas
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 10:48
Post #25


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,743
Joined: 8 Feb 2013
Member No.: 59,842



QUOTE (Zazaa @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 11:39) *
QUOTE (Umkomaas @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 11:28) *
Not many can now comply with the first requirement of the signage - 'A valid UKCPM permit & tax disc must be clearly displayed in the front windscreen at all times'.
Lots of people at risk of falling foul of that 'contract' now!



Yes, because isn't vehicle taxation now done online?

This is a bit confusing, in terms of, what to do. Should it be paid then?

All I'm trying to show you is how flaky their signage is, and if that is the only legal contract they have binding a motorist to them, then not only is it flaky, but shaky too. There has been no requirement to display a tax disc for 4 years. Can you imagine any other legal contract containing requirements 4 years out of date having much standing?

No one here advises paying this.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Zazaa
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 11:51
Post #26


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 82
Joined: 13 Feb 2013
Member No.: 59,939



QUOTE (Umkomaas @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 11:48) *
QUOTE (Zazaa @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 11:39) *
QUOTE (Umkomaas @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 11:28) *
Not many can now comply with the first requirement of the signage - 'A valid UKCPM permit & tax disc must be clearly displayed in the front windscreen at all times'.
Lots of people at risk of falling foul of that 'contract' now!



Yes, because isn't vehicle taxation now done online?

This is a bit confusing, in terms of, what to do. Should it be paid then?

All I'm trying to show you is how flaky their signage is, and if that is the only legal contract they have binding a motorist to them, then not only is it flaky, but shaky too. There has been no requirement to display a tax disc for 4 years. Can you imagine any other legal contract containing requirements 4 years out of date having much standing?

No one here advises paying this.



Hahaha yes no, I understood what you were pointing out smile.gif

So would one advise to write a letter, enclosing the permit, and explaining that the requirement to display a tax disc is unfair, as vehicles are taxed online, and have been for 4 years?

Just trying to gauge what course of action one should take, as today is the 14th day to pay the reduced fare or risk it going up.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Umkomaas
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 12:56
Post #27


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,743
Joined: 8 Feb 2013
Member No.: 59,842



QUOTE
So would one advise to write a letter, enclosing the permit, and explaining that the requirement to display a tax disc is unfair, as vehicles are taxed online, and have been for 4 years?

Does he have an actual parking permit? If so he should copy that with any challenge being made. But the tax disc issue is not relevant to this case unless, as Jlc said above, they were specifically pursuing him for not displaying a tax disc.

At the risk of repeating myself, I referenced this to show how old the 'contract' is and that it might help to throw doubt as to how enforceable it might be currently, after this passage of time.

It is something to add to any court case and for a Judge to be made aware of for his assessment of the claim. It isn't a showstopper in its own right.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Churchmouse
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 13:16
Post #28


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 2,007
Joined: 30 Jun 2008
From: Landan
Member No.: 20,731



QUOTE (ManxRed @ Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 12:23) *
Sign states that unauthorised parking MAY result in a PCN being issued. So, will it, or won't it? Not a great contractual term which, as it is vague, should be interpreted in the motorist's favour. In other words a PCN won't be issued.

Nice try, but it would more likely be interpreted as allowing the PPC to exercise its discretion to issue a PCN or refrain from doing so, rather than as an "ambiguous" term to be interpreted in the consumer's favour.

Additionally, the inclusion of a "valid tax disc" requirement should be embarrassing for the PPC, but the signs are simply the offer; the "contract" is freshly made each time someone "accepts" the terms on the signs and parks up.

--Churchmouse
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Zazaa
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 15:21
Post #29


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 82
Joined: 13 Feb 2013
Member No.: 59,939



Ok so bottom line- what should I do?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Zazaa
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 09:00
Post #30


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 82
Joined: 13 Feb 2013
Member No.: 59,939



What is the best course of action we should adopt in this situation.

BTW, We received a PCN for the exact same thing, but in the post. and this is dated 16th August. so we have 2 now.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 09:15
Post #31


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8,691
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



So post up a redacted copy of that PCN. Leave the dates.

So there was no response with a copy of the permit, as suggested?

This post has been edited by ostell: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 09:16
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Zazaa
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 09:56
Post #32


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 82
Joined: 13 Feb 2013
Member No.: 59,939





Apologies, I had put the permit and then took it down because there was info on it. Forgot to upload again.

Here it is again:

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 10:38
Post #33


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8,691
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



Is this the same PCN Number? If it is then they have shot themselves in the foot, if not you have 2 PCNs from them. One a notice to Driver for an incident on the 6th August and the other a Notice to Keeper, without windscreen ticket, for an incident on the 16th.

The Notice to Keeper gives the date of issue as 24th August for an incident on the 16th August. What was the date of sending on the NTK or when did you actually receive it?

This post has been edited by ostell: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 10:41
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Eljayjay
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 11:49
Post #34


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 874
Joined: 1 Apr 2017
Member No.: 91,235



Is the landlord the leasehold owner of the flat?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Zazaa
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 12:22
Post #35


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 82
Joined: 13 Feb 2013
Member No.: 59,939



Got a PCN sent to my mother's address, as she is the registered keeper, but it's for the same vehicle in the same place, dated 24/08/18 for an incident on 16/08/18 at 0232hrs. We just received it recently (issues with post in the block of flats).

Got the windshield PCN dated 30/08/18 at 0305hrs, same area, the next day when my brother went to the car.

Different PCN numbers. No notice to keeper sent/received yet.

My brother is renting a room in the area of where this incident has occurred - he is a lodger, as the landlord lives there.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Eljayjay
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 12:40
Post #36


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 874
Joined: 1 Apr 2017
Member No.: 91,235



Yes, but is his landlord the leasehold owner of the property?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 13:08
Post #37


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8,691
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



For the windshield ticket, dated 30th August then appeal this with CPM AS THE KEEPER so that it arrives on day 25 after the alleged breach date of the 30th of August. This is to persuade CPM to save £2.50 by not applying to the DVLA for the keepers data. In the appeal make a slight spelling mistake on the contact details, ie Greene instead of Green, so that you know if they have actually contacted the DVLA to get the V5 address. The result will be either no Notice to keeper will arrive before day 56 or if it does then they may not have contacted the DVLA. Bot are fails under POFA keeper liability.

For the the Notice to Keeper, for the alleged breach on the 24th, I asked what date did you actually receive it. "Recently" is not a good answer. The relevant period is 14 days after the event. Is there a date sent on the letter? Was it sent royal mail first class?

Having got the keepers details from the DVLA for the second alleged breach they may just be tempted to use the keepers details they got from the DVLA a second time. Not allowed. You will be emailing the DVLA, SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gsi.gov.uk, 56 days after the 30th August to ask who has accessed the keepers details, when and how many times.

I think you should start a second thread about the NTK you received in the post otherwise it is going to get confusing.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Zazaa
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 13:15
Post #38


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 82
Joined: 13 Feb 2013
Member No.: 59,939



QUOTE (Eljayjay @ Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 13:40) *
Yes, but is his landlord the leasehold owner of the property?



Let me ask him to find out-I'd say no, because it's in a block of flats, but let me ask him

QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 14:08) *
For the windshield ticket, dated 30th August then appeal this with CPM AS THE KEEPER so that it arrives on day 25 after the alleged breach date of the 30th of August. This is to persuade CPM to save £2.50 by not applying to the DVLA for the keepers data. In the appeal make a slight spelling mistake on the contact details, ie Greene instead of Green, so that you know if they have actually contacted the DVLA to get the V5 address. The result will be either no Notice to keeper will arrive before day 56 or if it does then they may not have contacted the DVLA. Bot are fails under POFA keeper liability.

For the the Notice to Keeper, for the alleged breach on the 24th, I asked what date did you actually receive it. "Recently" is not a good answer. The relevant period is 14 days after the event. Is there a date sent on the letter? Was it sent royal mail first class?

Having got the keepers details from the DVLA for the second alleged breach they may just be tempted to use the keepers details they got from the DVLA a second time. Not allowed. You will be emailing the DVLA, SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gsi.gov.uk, 56 days after the 30th August to ask who has accessed the keepers details, when and how many times.

I think you should start a second thread about the NTK you received in the post otherwise it is going to get confusing.



Ok let me do another thread for the PCN dated 24.08.18. (May I just ask why everyone is calling it a NTK? I thought this is usually issued after a PCN is issued and hasn't been responded to? )


Now, for the windshield one, I don't quite follow. CPM are the "keeper"? isn't that usually a term referred to for a car? If so, I'm a little confused by this.

This post has been edited by Zazaa: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 13:11
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 13:33
Post #39


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8,691
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



Notice to Keeper is what POFA calls it, and it appears in the title sometimes. A PCN can be either on the windscreen (Notice to Driver, NTD) or sent to the keeper through the post with or without a windscreen ticket (Notice to Keeper, NTK).

Misunderstanding. The keeper appeals to CPM (isn't English wonderful?) must not be the driver so that they think they don't have to access the DVLA. It has worked before.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Zazaa
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 16:15
Post #40


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 82
Joined: 13 Feb 2013
Member No.: 59,939



QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 14:33) *
Notice to Keeper is what POFA calls it, and it appears in the title sometimes. A PCN can be either on the windscreen (Notice to Driver, NTD) or sent to the keeper through the post with or without a windscreen ticket (Notice to Keeper, NTK).

Misunderstanding. The keeper appeals to CPM (isn't English wonderful?) must not be the driver so that they think they don't have to access the DVLA. It has worked before.



ah right, ok. I understand.

What should I be writing in my appeal? That I believe it has been issued in error and to see enclosed permit?

This post has been edited by Zazaa: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 16:16
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V  < 1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Monday, 19th November 2018 - 12:32
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.