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North Middlesex Hospital A&E Parking Charge Notice
pew
post Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 03:16
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Driver was attending A&E after a relative had been taken there by ambulance. While parking was initially paid for, the duration of stay ended up exceeding what was paid for. While in A&E, as carer, it was not possible for the driver to leave in order to top up parking, and by the time of leaving due to the stress of the situation parking was overlooked. Relative is registered disabled but blue badge was not present as was taken to hospital by ambulance.

PALS have been emailed, and they have responded by requesting registration number and PCN number in order to share it with the management team who liaise with the parking services.

Who should be contacted and what authority they have has slightly confused me. Should the appeal of the parking charge be done to UK Car Park Management? North Middlesex Hospitals site states “Anyone who is having difficulties with getting an issue resolved should contact nmcarpark@compass-group.co.uk.” Does an appeal need to be made to them as well? Are these two the management team and parking services referred to by PALS? Are PALS allowed to share information / emails sent to them with these companies?

Sorry for the poor quality photos. Parking charge is the same as a couple other cases so wording states the date of issue is 16 days after the date of the incident, so doesn’t conform to POFA requirements of notice to keeper.

On a side note don’t agree with charging patients for parking but implementing a parking system in which the duration of stay is calculated on leaving, instead of relying on patients to predict their duration of stay, which can be quite difficult in A&E, makes more sense. But I’m guess that would result in a major loss in revenue as there would no longer be any reason to issue parking charges.

Any further clarification or additions would be greatly appreciated.
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post Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 03:16
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Redivi
post Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 05:45
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Why any major organisation would employ such a disreputable company is beyond my understanding

UKCPM is employed by Compass Group, not the hospital trust that has no power to cancel parking notices

This thread suggests that PALS will fob you off by telling you to appeal to UKCPM
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...d.php?t=5759950

It does, however, include an example of a parking notice that was cancelled after sending a copy of the Blue Badge

Include a comment that hospital principles require that overstays are not enforced when outside the motorist's control

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/...ement-htm-07-03

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/...king-principles

Make the appeal to UKCPM as the keeper of the vehicle on Day 26
Provide an address that's slghtly different from the details on the vehicle's V5
If it rejects the appeal, file and ignore everything short of a Letter Before Claim

The address tactic will show if the company accessed (and paid for) your details at the DVLA
This is necessary to recover payment from the registered keeper if it doesn't know who was driving
It may even forget completely to send this Notice
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Umkomaas
post Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 07:37
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QUOTE
Make the appeal to UKCPM as the keeper of the vehicle on Day 26
Provide an address that's slghtly different from the details on the vehicle's V5
If it rejects the appeal, file and ignore everything short of a Letter Before Claim

The address tactic will show if the company accessed (and paid for) your details at the DVLA
This is necessary to recover payment from the registered keeper if it doesn't know who was driving
It may even forget completely to send this Notice

Looks like the NtK has already been issued - ANPR camera capture rather than ticket on windscreen.

Appeal can be made straight away. No prospect of success with the initial appeal - IPC Operator. No second stage appeal worth doing. Beyond initial appeal, it's a case of ignoring everything (including any debt collector letters) other than real court papers. While UKCPM are currently one of the most litigious operators, I doubt they'd be stupid enough to chance this one in front of a Judge, but initially it may not stop their roboclaim solicitors setting the ball rolling in that direction.

I'm afraid it's a case of preparing for a bit of a long run on this. So put as much pressure on the hospital as possible to try to get this killed off by them (recognising what Redivi says about Compass).
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Redivi
post Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 07:41
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My mistake

Didn't look at the pictures
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Jlc
post Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 08:06
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QUOTE (pew @ Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 04:16) *
Sorry for the poor quality photos. Parking charge is the same as a couple other cases so wording states the date of issue is 16 days after the date of the incident, so doesn’t conform to POFA requirements of notice to keeper.

Date of event 15/7, issued 27/7.

However, the assumed date of delivery would be 30/7 so outside 14 days. They claim keeper liability which is a misrepresentation imho.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ostell
post Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 08:23
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Date of issue is a friday so assumed delivered the following Tuesday, 31 July so even better for the OP.

If there has not been an appeal can I suggest:

Sirs

Ref PCN xxxxx VRM yyyyyy

I am the registered keeper of the above vehicle and am in receipt of the PCN you issued. I have no liability on this matter as you have failed to meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the prescribed relevant period of 14 days, contrary to section 9 (4) of the Act. You cannot therefore transfer liability from the driver at the time to me.

There is no legal requirement to identify the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc.


They are IPC members so when they reject, as they surely will, then don't even think about taking to the IAS who will also probably reject. Just sit tight and see what happens.
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King312
post Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 09:46
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You have been given sound advice by ostell above. Above advice succeeds this but the contracts are often not legally sound and not with land-owners be it the NHS/local government or a Trust but with a middle-man.

The parking charges in some hospitals is absolutely disgusting and it is a lucrative profit exercise for individuals/companies that does not benefit the NHS much.

On your side-note; I too agree patients should not be charged parking, and are often not charged! But as you point out above clearly it is the relative not the patient.

PALS with permission of the patient can speak to staff and look at notes, if the patient does give permission and it is clear to a lay-man (PALS) that the relative needed to be there -interpretation/agitation... than often they write to the enforcement company and ask for it to be cancelled otherwise you get a non-response or refer you to contact the parking company.

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The Rookie
post Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 09:46
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QUOTE (ostell @ Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 09:23) *
Date of issue is a friday so assumed delivered the following Tuesday, 31 July so even better for the OP.

If there has not been an appeal can I suggest:

Sirs

Ref PCN xxxxx VRM yyyyyy

I am the registered keeper of the above vehicle and am in receipt of the PCN you issued. I have no liability on this matter as you have failed to meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the prescribed relevant period of 14 days, contrary to section 9 (4) of Schedule 4. You cannot therefore transfer liability from the driver at the time to me.

There is no legal requirement to identify the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc.


They are IPC members so when they reject, as they surely will, then don't even think about taking to the IAS who will also probably reject. Just sit tight and see what happens.

FTFY


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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ostell
post Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 12:03
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 10:46) *
FTFY


It weren't broke. Schedule 4 was mentioned when POFA was mentioned earlier.
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pew
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 09:37
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Hi, just an update. I sent in my appeal as the keeper of the vehicle on the website given on the back on the 15 of August and received an automated confirmation email stating I would get a response in 28 days. It’s now been 24 days and I am yet to receive any response, however I have received a second letter in the post, attached, titled formal demand saying payment is overdue. Should I try and notify them of my appeal via email / telephone or would not receiving a response within the 28 days be to my advantage? Thanks.
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ostell
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 12:41
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Just hang fire. They are members of the IPC but the opposition, the BPA, makes a mention that if an appeal is not responded to within 35 days then it is assumed that the appeal has been accepted. I can't recall if the IPC has a similar statement in their Code of Practise.

Edit: IPC CoP 6.1 (d) should respond appropriately within 28 days.

This post has been edited by ostell: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 12:48
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Umkomaas
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 20:29
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PPCs pay no attention to the Code of Practice - unless it suits them. I've never seen the BPA insist on a cancellation of a PCN if no reply is provided within 35 days, what chance the IPC breaking new ground on that one?

None whatsoever, I'd hazard!
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ostell
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 21:04
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But you could quote beavis where they stated that the CoP should be taken as equivalent to law
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pew
post Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 17:39
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Response received on day 28 rejecting appeal.
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ostell
post Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 19:27
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Try one shot at writing back to them pointing out that POFA does not specify sending within 14 days, it requires the notice to be delivered within 14 days, as prescribed by 9 (4) (b). The alleged breach was on the 15th of July. They have not given a date of sending as required by 9 (2) (i) which may have been, and probably was, later than the issue date but as the Issue date is given as the 27th July, a Friday then it can not be considered as delivered until 2 working days later as defined by 9 (6), which takes the assumed delivery to Tuesday 31st July. My understanding of arithmetic is that 31 - 15 = 16, which is in excess of 14. There can therefore be no keeper liability.

You can also point out you are the keeper of the vehicle and therefore stating "As you did not pay...." is erroneous. Any further contact when there is no possible claim will be treated as harrassment.

Post first class and get a free certificate of postage from a post office. And file everything in a safe place.


After that just sit tight and see if you get a letter before claim, do not appeal to the IAS.

This post has been edited by ostell: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 20:05
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