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Gatwick North Terminal - Euro Car Parks, Private Parking tickets
Alexander86
post Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 23:21
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Dear all,

I am after some help on this topic and seeking for your advise. I have read the post of cabbyman where a similar topic has been discussed and successfuly closed.

As the registered keeper of the car, I have received today 23/07/18 a PCN (issued on the 20/07/18) in regard to the “event” dated as 15/07/18.
According to the pictures showing the registration plate on the letter, the driver enter Shell Petrol Station at 02:18 a.m, leaving at 03:08, exceeding the maximum period allowed.

If I am not mistaken, the procedure for the registered keeper is to make an Appeal, that will be surely rejected, and then direct the appeal to POPLA.

Your help will be much appreciated,
Kind regards,

This post has been edited by Alexander86: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 11:29
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post Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 23:21
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Sheffield Dave
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 06:31
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Edit your post so that the identity of the driver isn't hinted at. Refer to the driver only as "the driver".
What is the maximum allowed parking period?
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ostell
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 06:47
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Do that edit as suggested

Post up the PCN would help so that others can see what is on the notice. Personal details redacted.
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cabbyman
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 13:32
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If you read my thread very carefully, you will see that at no time was the driver identified. Your thread needs to maintain the same discipline. EDIT as previously suggested.

My ticket, IIRC, was from 2016. It's possible that signs and PCN could have changed in that time. ONLY use mine as a guide to your own case. Post pics of signs and PCN, suitably redacted, for us to look at.


--------------------
Cabbyman 10 PPCs 0
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Alexander86
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 18:59
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Dear all,

Thank you very much for your feedback.

The max allowed time is 20 minutes.

Please see below PCN photos and signage around the petrol station.

Looking at the pictures now, I must say that there are plenty of these but the driver didn’t see any as this was new to him. It was 2 a.m in the morning,
there where many cars parked there and the driver thought there wouldn’t be any problem to stick around whilst washing the car and having some snacks.
As additional information, the driver spent easily 10-15 mimutes washing the car having selected the shortest program on the machine.
This makes almost impossible to do the job in 20 minutes without considering that you need to pay first at the till.

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image


Thank you in advance,
Kind regards,

This post has been edited by Alexander86: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 11:46
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cabbyman
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 19:06
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STOP IDENTIFYING THE DRIVER. GO BACK AND EDIT ALL YOUR POSTS TO THAT EFFECT.


--------------------
Cabbyman 10 PPCs 0
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Sheffield Dave
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 19:31
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Anywhere where you write about what the driver did or saw on the day, avoid phrases like "I/we/my wife/my son did X"; replace any such occurrences with "the driver did X". It's okay to identify yourself as the registered keeper, e.g. "on Monday I received a Notice to Keeper"
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Macapaca
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 19:33
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Euro Car Parks don't do court so sit back and relax. They have issued 108,000 tickets so far in 2018 with ZERO court cases! They have only had three in the last three years!
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Alexander86
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 20:58
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 20:06) *
STOP IDENTIFYING THE DRIVER. GO BACK AND EDIT ALL YOUR POSTS TO THAT EFFECT.


Do you mean to edit all my posts in this forum?
Can EURO CAR PARKS use this content published here as a proof of me being the driver???

I am not planning to make my appeal explaining what I saw or I did, since they could not care less...

I will post here my appeal tomorrow so you can comment on it before sending it.

Thanks for you help,
Regards,
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Jlc
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 21:06
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Yes, forum posts do appear in court.

(However unlikely here)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Sheffield Dave
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 21:59
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Even if ECP don't currently do court, they have up to 6 years to change their mind. So no leaving clues around for them to wave in court years later.
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ostell
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 22:21
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QUOTE (Alexander86 @ Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 21:58) *
QUOTE (cabbyman @ Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 20:06) *
STOP IDENTIFYING THE DRIVER. GO BACK AND EDIT ALL YOUR POSTS TO THAT EFFECT.


Do you mean to edit all my posts in this forum?
Can EURO CAR PARKS use this content published here as a proof of me being the driver???

I am not planning to make my appeal explaining what I saw or I did, since they could not care less...

I will post here my appeal tomorrow so you can comment on it before sending it.

Thanks for you help,
Regards,


You asked for help, part of the help is remove statements that could infer who could be driving. Plain and simple choice. do as people suggest and ask and probably win or ignore and argue that you know best and most likely lose.
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 07:42
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You came here asking for advice
The very plain simple advice was given, same as on every thread, yet with no research or knowledge in this matter, you know best. Youve done no research in other threads to see WHY this advice is given, nor seen where lawyers HAVE submitted forum posts into evidence, yet you know best.

Cant you see how that would be a trifle annoying?
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Alexander86
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 11:50
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All,

All post edited as suggested.
Apologies for the misunderstanding. I would have never imagine that the information here could be used in court.

Kind Regards,

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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 12:48
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Why not?
Its publicv info in a civil court
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Alexander86
post Fri, 27 Jul 2018 - 14:16
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Dear all,

Please see below my appeal to ECP.
It is literally a mix and match of the existing posts on this forum. I've just added the fact that the car was not "literally" parked (as the PCN says) but waiting to fill up the tank, putting air on the tyres or using any of the other facilities provided by the station.

What do you think?

Any feedback will be greatly appreciated,

Regards,

Dear Sirs,

Parking Charge Notice xxxxxxxxx:
Vehicle Registration xxxxxx

I refer to the above-detailed Parking Charge Notice (“PCN”) issued to me by Euro Car Parks Ltd (“ECP”) as a Notice to Keeper. I confirm that I am the keeper of this vehicle for the purpose of the corresponding definition under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA”) and I write to formally dispute the validity of this PCN.

You will no doubt be familiar with the strict requirements of Schedule 4 of POFA to be followed in order for a parking operator to be able to claim unpaid parking charges from a vehicle’s keeper. However, there are a number of reasons why ECP’s Notice to Keeper did not comply with POFA; in order that you may understand why, I suggest that you carefully study the details of Schedule 4, Paragraph 9 in particular.

I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. In addition, I dispute your Parking charge notice since there is no evidence of the car being literally parked in your premises, since the driver could have been using the facilities in the station. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

ECP has now forfeited its right to claim keeper liability and such further pursuance is liable to cause unwarranted and substantial damage and distress to the registered keeper. . Therefore please confirm that you shall now cancel this charge and that my details have been removed from your system as you no longer have any need to hold them. This instruction constitutes a notice of objection to processing under section 10 of the Data Processing Act 1998.

Sincerely,
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Redivi
post Fri, 27 Jul 2018 - 14:39
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Dear Sirs,

Parking Charge Notice xxxxxxxxx:
Vehicle Registration xxxxxx

I refer to the above-detailed Parking Charge Notice (“PCN”) issued to me by Euro Car Parks Ltd (“ECP”) as a Notice to Keeper. I confirm that I am the keeper of this vehicle for the purpose of the corresponding definition under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA”) and I write to formally dispute the validity of this PCN.

You will no doubt be familiar with the strict requirements of Schedule 4 of POFA to be followed in order for a parking operator to be able to claim unpaid parking charges from a vehicle’s keeper. However, there are a number of reasons why ECP’s Notice to Keeper did not comply with POFA; in order that you may understand why, I suggest that you carefully study the details of Schedule 4, Paragraph 9 in particular.

I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. In addition, I dispute your Parking charge notice since there is no evidence of the car being literally parked in your premises, since the driver could have been using the facilities in the station. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

Sincerely


This post has been edited by Redivi: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 - 14:40
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Alexander86
post Fri, 27 Jul 2018 - 16:47
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Thank you Redivi,
I will make the appeal as you suggest.
Kind regards,
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Alexander86
post Wed, 8 Aug 2018 - 22:40
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Dear all,

I have received a response to my appeal to ECP (please see below), which has been rejected.
I have been provided with a POPLA verification code so I am now in a position to make my second appeal.

Can I use the content of the appeal sent by Cabbyman as per the link below?
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?s=&...t&p=1214223

Given the circumstances of both cases, I would think the same terms would be applicable.

Value your thoughts,

Thank you in advance,
Kind regards,

Ref: xxxxxxxxxxx

Date: 08/08/2018
Our Ref: XXXXXXXXXXX
Unique POPLA Verification Code: XXXXXXXXXXX

Dear Mr X
Thank you for your letter of appeal. The details of the Parking Charge Notice are as follows:

Parking Charge Notice Number: xxxxxxxxxxx

Date of Issue: 15/07/2018
Vehicle Registration Mark: XXXX XXX

Time of Issue: 03:08:16
Car Park: Shell Petrol Station - Gatwick North
Breach of Terms and Conditions:
Your vehicle was parked longer than the maximum period allowed

Having carefully considered the evidence provided by you we have decided to reject your appeal for the following reasons:
 On entry to private land it is the responsibility of the driver to check for signage and ensure that your vehicle has not breached the terms and conditions on site.
 Shell Petrol Station - Gatwick North is operated by Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) – cameras capture an image of vehicles entering and leaving the site and calculate their length of stay. Your vehicle exceeded the maximum stay of 20 minutes, therefore the notice was issued correctly and the charge remains payable.
 The site is private property and contract law applies. Euro Car Parks (ECP) offer our client a space management service.
 There is clear entrance signage on site and signs further location within the area – it is the driver’s responsibility to check all signage when entering any area that may have terms and conditions restricted to the area.

Please make payment of the discounted amount of £60.00 by visiting our website at www.eurocarparks.com or use the automated telephone service 0203 553 4559. Alternatively make your cheque payable to Euro Car Parks Limited (to include a £2.50 handling charge for cheque processing) and post to Euro Car Parks Ltd, 30 Dorset Square, London, NW1 6QJ, quoting the PCN number on the reverse of the cheque.This amount is now due and the charge will be held for 14 days to allow time to make the payment. If payment is not received by this time the charge will increase to £100.00 and this may also result in the notice being passed to a third party with further charges applicable.

You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure.

You can make an appeal to The Independent Appeals Service (POPLA) within 28 days online at www.popla.co.uk with the following reference number XXXXXXXXX. Alternatively, if you wish to appeal to the Independent Appeals Service by post a copy of the appeal application can be sent at your request. Please be advised that if you opt for independent arbitration of your case the ability to pay the parking charge at the reduced rate will be at an end. If you opt to pay the parking charge notice you will be unable to appeal to POPLA. If you choose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via debt recovery procedures and may proceed with Court action against you.
By law we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman Services (www.ombudsman- services.org/) provides an alternative dispute resolution service that would be competent to deal with your appeal. However, we have not chosen to participate in their alternative dispute resolution service. As such should you wish to appeal then you must do so to POPLA, as explained above.

Yours sincerely
PCN Coordinator
Parking Charge Notice Department
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Macapaca
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 07:34
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So that is the inevitable initial appeal rejection out of the way. You will need to beef up your evidence for the POPLA appeal. Your main points seem to be POFA compliance and signage. You will need to be more specific on why these are non-compliant otherwise POPLA will also reject your appeal. Draft your appeal and post it here for review.

This post has been edited by Macapaca: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 21:19
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