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NPS Ltd PCN for breaching No Waiting!
rich2568
post Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 17:36
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The driver has a PCN for returning within 6mins in a "No Return Within 1hr" car park managed by Northern Parking Services of 22 Wenlock Rd, London, N1 7GU.

The driver & was totally unaware such a rule existed! The driver certainly doesn't have £100 spare to pay for a ridiculous 'breach' of their so called T & C, s!

We will obviously appeal as a different driver then revisited the car park!

Any help in the appeal letter would be very much appreciated 👍🙂

This post has been edited by rich2568: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 19:08
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post Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 17:36
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rich2568
post Sat, 4 Aug 2018 - 16:38
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QUOTE (ManxRed @ Fri, 27 Jul 2018 - 16:22) *
QUOTE (rich2568 @ Fri, 27 Jul 2018 - 16:06) *
QUOTE (ostell @ Fri, 27 Jul 2018 - 14:28) *
Ask them to identify the drivers on each occasion as any alleged contract is with the drivers at the time and not the keeper, otherwise go away.

Does the POFA not allow them to chase the keeper for the money if no driver is admitted? Just wondering as a prev post from Redivi said this is what they are able to do (like Parking Eye)?


No, POFA simply allows them to pursue the Keeper for any charges for which the driver is liable. If there were two different drivers, then neither of them has breached any terms and conditions, and therefore neither of them has any liability for any parking charge. Hence, there is nothing to hold the Keeper liable for in the first place.


Oh I see... Is this PCN unenforceable then if its 2 different DRIVERS & they are unable to prove otherwise? Oh
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Sheffield Dave
post Sat, 4 Aug 2018 - 18:05
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QUOTE (rich2568 @ Sat, 4 Aug 2018 - 17:38) *
Oh I see... Is this PCN unenforceable then if its 2 different DRIVERS & they are unable to prove otherwise? Oh

It's down to a district judge deciding on the balance of probabilities whether the totality of evidence and testimony supplied to them indicates that it was two separate drivers or the same one.
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rich2568
post Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 20:09
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The latest BPA Code of Practice state the following in 23.3:-

Under POFA 2012, you can gain the right to recover
unpaid charges from keepers only if particular conditions
have been met.
However, if the keeper did not give you details about the driver or hirer, or if the driver or hirer refuses to acknowledge their liability, you would be able to pursue the registered keeper.

Seems the provisions lie within Schedule 4 of POFA 2012......
I've read the long Section 4......is it purely just about identifying the driver first...?
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Jlc
post Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 20:32
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Quite simply, if the keeper does not know or will not name the driver then they have the right to pursue the keeper for the driver's unpaid parking charge.

Naming the driver dispenses of the need of PoFA... (Generally the driver should not be named, but there are times when it's a good idea)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ostell
post Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 14:31
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 21:32) *
Quite simply, if the keeper does not know or will not name the driver then they have the right to pursue the keeper for the driver's unpaid parking charge.


But only if they get POFA correct.

POFA is law, BPA Code of Practise is only guidance.
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Jlc
post Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 15:17
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Yes, of course. Some ATA 'advice' is dubious at best. Particularly, the one supporting the view the keeper is always liable after the 28 days has expired - shame that's not what the law says...

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 15:17


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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rich2568
post Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 15:26
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Images posted by the company (at seperate visits stated on PCN) - I'm assuming will be assessed by a Judge? Just assessing the strength of asking them to identify the drivers??
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rich2568
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 19:43
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Anyone comment on my prev post..... About to pop my appeal online....
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Macapaca
post Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 21:50
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Just name the two drivers assuming that they were actually different. If there are photos then post here for comment.
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rich2568
post Thu, 6 Sep 2018 - 18:16
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Well no surprise-- NPDS rejected my appeal---so onto POPLA we go........Their reason for rejection are as follows

"The photographs show the vehicle returned to the car park within 1 hour of leaving. The appeal does not discuss the circumstances resulting in the PCN being issued. Instead the appellant raises a number of points that may (or may not) be relevant at a later date. At this stage we consider whether the appellant give good reason for the PCN to be cancelled. As the appellant has not discussed the Notice itself we must assume that the facts resulting in its issue are not disputed (:-)) "

QUOTE (Macapaca @ Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 22:50) *
Just name the two drivers assuming that they were actually different. If there are photos then post here for comment.


The photographs (enlarged) are showing entry with 2 persons inc driver--- then when re-entry takes place ---just the one person- the driver.
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Macapaca
post Thu, 6 Sep 2018 - 19:52
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QUOTE (rich2568 @ Thu, 6 Sep 2018 - 19:16) *
The photographs (enlarged) are showing entry with 2 persons inc driver--- then when re-entry takes place ---just the one person- the driver.

It is irrelevant how many people were in the car. The important point is whether the driver was different. You still haven't made that clear. You will need to make it absolutely clear if you want to succeed at POPLA.
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rich2568
post Thu, 6 Sep 2018 - 20:32
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The large images presented have images representative of the same driver....

A question regards the PCN-- should it have POFA info on it ?
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 08:30
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It does not have to state POFA2012 anywhere. It just has to have the required wording FROM POFA.
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Macapaca
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 09:02
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You still haven't made it clear whether the driver was different on both laps. You say that the photos indicate it was the same driver but is it conclusive evidence? Could it be argued that they were indeed different?

This post has been edited by Macapaca: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 09:09
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 09:40
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Just answet this simple question: was it the SAME or DIFFERENT drivers.
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rich2568
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 23:50
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 09:30) *
It does not have to state POFA2012 anywhere. It just has to have the required wording FROM POFA.

Annoyingly I cannot locate the PCN.......
But I'm sure on the reverse there is no reference at all to POFA...?


QUOTE (Macapaca @ Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 10:02) *
You still haven't made it clear whether the driver was different on both laps. You say that the photos indicate it was the same driver but is it conclusive evidence? Could it be argued that they were indeed different?

The driver was the same driver who had to suddenly leave for his money who then returned
Can't seem to post the images showing their ANPR evidence..... 😕
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rich2568
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 00:11
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 09:30) *
It does not have to state POFA2012 anywhere. It just has to have the required wording FROM POFA.


I do recall someone stating that they would win their POPLA appeal due to the failure of POFA wording as follows....

"A Golden PE PCN. There is no mention of POFA on the PCN so a simple letter

I am the keeper of vehicle xxxxx responding to your Parking Charge Notice xxxx

The PCN fails to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, namely, but not limited to, 9 (2) (f), failing to give the keeper notice of possible liability. I can not have any liability in this matter. I have no requirement in law to provide details of the driver at the time of the event and will not be doing so"

Would this be a good line of defence in a POPLA appeal?
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ostell
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 06:36
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But 9 (2) (f) is there. 9 (2) (e) is not quit in the prescribed format.
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rich2568
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 14:24
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QUOTE (ostell @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 07:36) *
But 9 (2) (f) is there. 9 (2) (e) is not quit in the prescribed format.


Please explain....... 👍
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cabbyman
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 14:39
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http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9...edule/4/enacted


--------------------
Cabbyman 10 PPCs 0
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