Do the police need to pull you over to catch you for no insurance? |
Do the police need to pull you over to catch you for no insurance? |
Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 03:18
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 12 Nov 2019 Member No.: 106,600 |
It is my understanding that fixed anpr cameras ping alerts for insurance etc to nearby patrol cars for interception, but if you are not pulled over, yet pass a fixed anpr camera without insurance, can it issue you 6 points and a fine through the post, without needing to have an officer pull you over?
Has anyone had any personal experience with this? |
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Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 03:18
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Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 03:59
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
It is my understanding that fixed anpr cameras ping alerts for insurance etc to nearby patrol cars for interception, but if you are not pulled over, yet pass a fixed anpr camera without insurance, can it issue you 6 points and a fine through the post, without needing to have an officer pull you over? Has anyone had any personal experience with this? Just to start by putting your post into proper context. Clearly a camera cannot issue you with 6 points and a fine (it physically can't) a Police officer needs to issue any fixed penalty. Even an officer makes you the offer you are free to reject and take it court, so there s no such thing as 'issuing 6 points and a fine', its an offer of a fixed penalty to avoid prosecution in court (which will cost more if found guilty). Could they use just a catch by an ANPR camera to progress for no insurance? Yes they could, a S172 requirement to name the driver would be sent to the registered keeper, once the driver is identified then a fixed penalty could be offered OR the Police take it straight to a 'summons' to court as they see fit. (Noting that while the points for failing to identify the driver are the same, it means a court case with a higher fiscal penalty (fine plus costs plus surcharge) but the increased insurance premium is lower........ Do they do this as a matter of course? No that's generally left to the DVLA via the continuous insurance requirement. -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 04:55
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 12 Nov 2019 Member No.: 106,600 |
So if an uninsured car drives through a fixed anpr camera then it's likely the registered keeper will receive a pcn through the post, regardless of whether an officer intercepted or not?
Sorry, still not completely clear on it. |
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Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 06:40
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
No....
PCN's come from the council, so a PCN will never arrive for this as it's nothing to do with councils. Under law a car that is not SORN has to be insured, (known as continuous insurance - certain exemptions apply for in-trade vehicles)) so if DVLA find out a car is uninsured and not SORN (that's just checking databases), OR is spotted on road when SORN (when it shouldn't be) they will issue a penalty notice for this. (financial only, no points). While the Police COULD (assuming the camera is Police, ANPR is a software and all it does is detect a number from the image, that can have many uses) use cameras and THEN ask the registered keeper who was driving (so that's not a PCN or a Fixed Penalty) THEN once the driver is confirmed send an offer of a Fixed Penalty, they rarely (if ever) do so. Which is what I said above and you managed to flip into a do rather than a don't! -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 06:49
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 12 Nov 2019 Member No.: 106,600 |
So essentially, you rarely get any form of ticket for driving through a fixed anpr camera, even though the point of them being there is to stop uninsured cars and motor offences similar?
Seems like a waste of resources to me, unless they're only tryna catch terrorists |
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Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 06:54
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
So essentially, you rarely get any form of ticket for driving through a fixed anpr camera, even though the point of them being there is to stop uninsured cars and motor offences similar? ANPR cameras can be for many things, many are for traffic monitoring only (so time lots of cars two cameras to see how fast the traffic is moving, these use anonomysing data) for speed limit setting, traffic flow management etc, for parking enforcement (private), for tracking cars suspected of criminal activity (terrorism, drugs etc etc), connected to a van to create stops etc. At petrol statiosn for drive offs etc etc. So clearly No, that's not the point at all. So it rather depends what 'ANPR camera' you mean (noting its actually just a camera, its the Software that does the ANPR bit on the resulting image) you keep talking about really! -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 07:13
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,423 Joined: 15 Apr 2009 From: Winnersh, UK Member No.: 27,840 |
An additional complication is that although there may not be an insurance policy on the vehicle, it is possible that the driver has their own insurance cover. No ANPR system can detect this because the driver's identity is not known
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Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 07:50
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
The driver would have a defence, so that comes into the 'so what' category.
Wouldn't protect against the continuous insurance liability unless it came under one of the specific exemptions. -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 08:54
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 12 Nov 2019 Member No.: 106,600 |
Oh okay. How many are used to catch uninsured drivers compared to ones used for traffic monitoring? Is it safe to say the majority of them are not looking for tax, mot and insurance?
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Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 09:41
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#10
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Webmaster Group: Root Admin Posts: 8,205 Joined: 30 Mar 2003 From: Wokingham, UK Member No.: 2 |
Is it safe to say the majority of them are not looking for tax, mot and insurance? Unless it's in a police car/van or some other temporary set-up for DVLA, say, I doubt that any of them are being used for those purposes. They probably come under the headings of too frequent and trivial to bother spending police time detecting (eg MoT), or throwing up too many false positives (driver insurance). BTW, this is the third thread you've started in the Speeding section for something that's not a live case, but rather a general interest question. Don't. -------------------- Regards,
Fredd __________________________________________________________________________
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Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 10:08
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
Oh okay. How many are used to catch uninsured drivers compared to ones used for traffic monitoring? Is it safe to say the majority of them are not looking for tax, mot and insurance? What makes you think each camera is only used for one purpose? If you’re driving around uninsured, stop it, it really is that simple. -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 11:06
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 12 Nov 2019 Member No.: 106,600 |
Nothing makes me think that, which is why I'm asking. And obviously I don't drive around uninsured, I've just been reading up recently and remember a period a few months ago where there was a problem with the direct debits and it didn't renew while I had no idea so was driving a couple days uninsured. The reason for this thread is I'm wondering if it is a thing for people to receive some sort of letter through the post that says you're being prosecuted, as info online is quite conflicting.
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Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 11:26
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
As some of what you were saying didn't make any sense on any level (such as a camera issuing a fine), perhaps do some more reading and get some coherent facts together next time! Try and sort out the more reputable sources as well. (And use the right forum so you don't annoy Fredd, you've had them moved twice, so clearly had been doing it wrong and then did the same AGAIN).
-------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 12:01
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 12 Nov 2019 Member No.: 106,600 |
You don't have to be so patronising. I am simply asking whether anyone could provide info about anpr and whether the police will send something through the post if you drive through one, or wheyher they have to pull you over physically to be able to prosecute for it.
If I already had found this info, I would not be asking here, obviously. |
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Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 12:22
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,300 Joined: 17 Jun 2011 Member No.: 47,602 |
You don't have to be so patronising. I am simply asking whether anyone could provide info about anpr and whether the police will send something through the post if you drive through one, or wheyher they have to pull you over physically to be able to prosecute for it. If I already had found this info, I would not be asking here, obviously. OK. The simple answer is that they can't send 'you' something through the post as they don't know who 'you' are. They may write to the registered keeper. |
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Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 12:30
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
To be honest, the question reads more like "what are my chances of being copped?"
End of the day, if a camera that is looking spots an uninsured motor, something can happen. Whether that is from police or DVLA doesn't really matter except for the potential penalty. Whether it will happen is another question. Personally I would only be worried about police checks, spot check or traffic car following. But easy way not to find out is to be insured. |
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Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 13:26
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 12 Nov 2019 Member No.: 106,600 |
Thank you 666, and dancingdad for the clear answers.
And yeah I suppose you could reword it to what are my chances of being copped, since I did drive uninsured unintentionally for a couple days. |
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Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 13:48
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I know from experience that way, way, way too many false positives would come up if ANPR cameras were used to detect no insurance offences. The police are never going to bother prosecuting anyone on the basis of an ANPR ping alone, because they wouldn't have time to do anything else and most of those prosecutions would fail anyway when it turned out that a policy of some sort or another did in fact exist.
However legally the police could do this, because once it's proven that a vehicle was being driven on a road, it's up to the defendant to prove that valid insurance was in place, it's not for the police to prove that it wasn't. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 15 Nov 2019 - 00:41
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 64 Joined: 15 Aug 2019 Member No.: 105,250 |
As I understand, the quick answer to this is yes, you could be done for no insurance without a stop by virtue of the camera recording it and an officer processing.
The exact mechanism given the driver is unknown is the registered keeper would be written to and they would be compelled to identify the driver. After that you would either be offered points and a fine or summonsed to court. Whether all of the above would take place is a matter for speculation but given the number of false positives it would be a lot of work for very few results so its questionable whether anyone is devoting such resources. So yes, you could be done and you'd have very little by way of a defence if you were not paying for a policy. Whether you will be? Who knows, if it worries you then you may be more inclined to make sure your bills are paid to avoid such a scenario. Its definitely a maybe. what are my chances of being copped, since I did drive uninsured unintentionally for a couple days. Slim but nonzero. |
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