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stevep119
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 13:20
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Hi,

Looking for some advice smile.gif

Yesterday a driver accidently drove past a sign that said "Except Access Only".

The road they was travelling on had a mini roundabout with two exits, (straight over or right).

The sign is past the mini roundabout meaning you would have to go over the mini roundabout to see it, and in turn enter the "Except Access only" road.

As I say, they didnt see the sign, there was no yellow lines on the road and they could see other cars parked up without displaying permits or anything.

They did a 3 point turn and at that point their phone rang so they pulled over. While on the phone the driver saw a white van with a private security company name on the side.

The guy was taking a photo of the sign the driver had driven past. He then got in the van and drove up towards the drivers car. He parked about 10ft away, got out and then using his smart phone pointed it at an angle that looked like it might capture the drivers car but was not head on if that makes sense.

The driver looked at him and he smiled and waved. He made no indication the driver had done anything wrong nor made any enquires as to why the driver was in the road.

It looked like he either took a short video or a few pics in the general direction of the drivers car. He then drove drove off.

The driver was concerned as they wasnt aware they had done anything wrong, they looked around and again could see cars in the road parked and no lines or signs.

The driver decided to go and have a look at the sign, and when they got to it they saw it said "Except Access Only" with a picture of a car and a motorbike on top of eachother.

Concerned they drove away from the area and when they got home started worrying that this guy was taking pics of them and their car and will report them.

Has anyone else had this happen? what are the fines for entering an access only road.

Any help would be appreciated.

This post has been edited by stevep119: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 14:14
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post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 13:20
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stamfordman
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 13:24
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Let's see a google street view of where this is.
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stevep119
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 13:29
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 13:24) *
Let's see a google street view of where this is.



I have attached it
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DancingDad
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 13:34
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QUOTE (stevep119 @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 13:29) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 13:24) *
Let's see a google street view of where this is.



I have attached it


A link to that please so we can have a look around.

The sign would not only say for access only, there would have been a restriction, No Motor Vehicles for instance with the Access part an exemption.
Which is what it looks like.

At the moment have no idea if you have anything to worry on or should be expecting a notice in the post.
Outside of London or Cardiff, won't be a council.



This post has been edited by DancingDad: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 13:37
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stevep119
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 13:41
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 13:34) *
QUOTE (stevep119 @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 13:29) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 13:24) *
Let's see a google street view of where this is.



I have attached it


A link to that please so we can have a look around.

The sign would not only say for access only, there would have been a restriction, No Motor Vehicles for instance with the Access part an exemption.
Which is what it looks like.

At the moment have no idea if you have anything to worry on or should be expecting a notice in the post.
Outside of London or Cardiff, won't be a council.


Thank you

here is a link to google maps, it was not in London. I think the road belongs to the Uni and is adopted by the Council? I am not sure.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7630028,-...6384!8i8192

On google it shows two signs, one on each side of the road but I only saw one sign when I went back to look

Thanks again.
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DancingDad
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 14:03
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The No Motor Vehicles sign would not be a concern IMO, only the cops can do you for that.
This one may be
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7626543,-...3312!8i6656
Private parking signs and your description could mean a love letter from them coming through the post.

If it does, the Private Parking Forum is the place to be.
If you post on there, refer to the driver, no I parked to answer my phone, the driver parked, the driver went through 15 no entry signs and did a handbrake turn... never admit to being the driver, even or especially on here.
You may want to edit your original on here....which will probably move to the flame pit BTW.
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stevep119
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 14:19
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 14:03) *
The No Motor Vehicles sign would not be a concern IMO, only the cops can do you for that.
This one may be
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.7626543,-...3312!8i6656
Private parking signs and your description could mean a love letter from them coming through the post.

If it does, the Private Parking Forum is the place to be.
If you post on there, refer to the driver, no I parked to answer my phone, the driver parked, the driver went through 15 no entry signs and did a handbrake turn... never admit to being the driver, even or especially on here.
You may want to edit your original on here....which will probably move to the flame pit BTW.


Thanks for the info.

Can the private secuirity guy pass the images onto the police of the driver? how would the police or the secruity guy know what access the driver needed? maybe they was visiting a house for sale on the road?

To be clear, the driver said the secruity guy only took a picture of the "access only" sign. He didnt take pics of the parking signs on the lamposts. Which led the driver to believe the guy was looking to enforce the access only despite not being a police officer !

As for the parking signs, doesnt the warden have to witness the driver parked for more than a certain amount of time before the can do anything?

The driver said they only pulled over for a few mins.

This post has been edited by stevep119: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 14:25
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stamfordman
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 14:24
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Nothing to do but wait and update this thread if a PCN comes. Is the car reg doc (V5C) up to date.
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stevep119
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 14:27
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 14:24) *
Nothing to do but wait and update this thread if a PCN comes. Is the car reg doc (V5C) up to date.



Yes the driver confirmed the V5C is upto date.

Thanks. I will let the driver no smile.gif

So a private parking company cannot issue an FPN? which is what the Police would issue if they saw someone drive into an access only road without a valid reason?



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DancingDad
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 15:39
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If it is to be a police ticket, it could be based on a video/photos sent in by a private person.
That would need the video showing the vehicle passing the sign.
Could it happen, yes, would it, dunno but doubt it.

IMO far more likely would be that the guy is working for the PPC and some sort of letter would come from them, parking without permit or something similar.

It is wait and see what appears if anything.
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southpaw82
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 15:40
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Why doesn’t “the driver” come and ask themselves?


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DancingDad
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 16:08
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 15:40) *
Why doesn’t “the driver” come and ask themselves?

Quite possibly cos I suggested the driver is referred to as this could go PPC route with driver but not owner liability as a possible option.
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southpaw82
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 20:09
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 16:08) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 15:40) *
Why doesn’t “the driver” come and ask themselves?

Quite possibly cos I suggested the driver is referred to as this could go PPC route with driver but not owner liability as a possible option.

That'll make advice nice and easy then... I've aired my views on that "strategy" before. Does it work at POPLA/IPC (or whatever they’re called today)?

Does this need to be moved?

This post has been edited by southpaw82: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 20:18


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Fredd
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 21:11
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 20:09) *
Does this need to be moved?

Not until it becomes something more than a suggestive leer from a security goon, I would suggest,


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DancingDad
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 22:15
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 20:09) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 16:08) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 15:40) *
Why doesn’t “the driver” come and ask themselves?

Quite possibly cos I suggested the driver is referred to as this could go PPC route with driver but not owner liability as a possible option.

That'll make advice nice and easy then... I've aired my views on that "strategy" before. Does it work at POPLA/IPC (or whatever they’re called today)?

Does this need to be moved?


I could not say for Popla though I believe they do or did take driver v owner liability seriously
IPC (or their new monicker) by many accounts reject anything in favour of the PPC.
I can say from first hand that it is taken seriously in court proceedings. The PPC solicitor (for BW legal acting for VCL) ws extremely keen to show I was the driver on the day. They had not bothered with the niceties of POFA so were relying on "reasonable assumption" to show that myself as the owner was the driver. The judge was less bothered but I suspect because he had made his decision on other matters anyway.

Not a live case here anyway, just potential.
Whether it goes further, OP will know if a letter comes through the door.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 22:16
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southpaw82
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 23:03
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 22:15) *
I can say from first hand that it is taken seriously in court proceedings. The PPC solicitor (for BW legal acting for VCL) ws extremely keen to show I was the driver on the day. They had not bothered with the niceties of POFA so were relying on "reasonable assumption" to show that myself as the owner was the driver. The judge was less bothered but I suspect because he had made his decision on other matters anyway.

At court it can be downright dangerous. If the claim alleges that the defendant was the driver then the defendant is taken to accept that assertion unless it’s denied. If the defendant was in fact the driver they can’t deny it (or state no knowledge if they do have knowledge) without falling foul of the statement of truth. In a properly conducted case it’s of limited, if any, value and could get the defendant into serious bother if they make a false declaration.


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cp8759
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 23:33
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 23:03) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 22:15) *
I can say from first hand that it is taken seriously in court proceedings. The PPC solicitor (for BW legal acting for VCL) ws extremely keen to show I was the driver on the day. They had not bothered with the niceties of POFA so were relying on "reasonable assumption" to show that myself as the owner was the driver. The judge was less bothered but I suspect because he had made his decision on other matters anyway.

At court it can be downright dangerous. If the claim alleges that the defendant was the driver then the defendant is taken to accept that assertion unless it’s denied. If the defendant was in fact the driver they can’t deny it (or state no knowledge if they do have knowledge) without falling foul of the statement of truth. In a properly conducted case it’s of limited, if any, value and could get the defendant into serious bother if they make a false declaration.

If the claimant makes an allegation with no evidential basis whatsoever, they also risk falling foul of the statement of truth. Signing a SoT claiming that the defendant was in fact the driver when this is a mere assumption could be seen at the very least as reckless.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 23:33


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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DancingDad
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 23:33
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 23:03) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 22:15) *
I can say from first hand that it is taken seriously in court proceedings. The PPC solicitor (for BW legal acting for VCL) ws extremely keen to show I was the driver on the day. They had not bothered with the niceties of POFA so were relying on "reasonable assumption" to show that myself as the owner was the driver. The judge was less bothered but I suspect because he had made his decision on other matters anyway.

At court it can be downright dangerous. If the claim alleges that the defendant was the driver then the defendant is taken to accept that assertion unless it’s denied. If the defendant was in fact the driver they can’t deny it (or state no knowledge if they do have knowledge) without falling foul of the statement of truth. In a properly conducted case it’s of limited, if any, value and could get the defendant into serious bother if they make a false declaration.

Fully accepted and a point I have seen you make before. And thought hard on prior to my case being heard.

In my case the claim alleged I was the driver based on reasonable assumption.
I did not deny but did point out that reasonable assumption was at best 50/50 given there are two named drivers on insurance. That they were targeting the owner because they could not be bothered to follow POFA and that I saw no need to put any other family member n the frame when they had singularly failed to establish who the driver was and were pursuing a speculative claim.
As it happened the judge did ask me direct and I answered truthfully. By that time I was almost 100% sure I had won anyway and that any prevarication would not endear me to the court.
It was found that VCL had failed to provide a parking place (car park was jammed solid) so their offer of parking was not one I could take up, so no contract and no case. In that respect it would not have mattered on driver or owner liability.
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cp8759
post Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 23:35
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 23:33) *
As it happened the judge did ask me direct and I answered truthfully.

That's the sort of thing that makes me think if I'm ever a defendant in a small claim track case, I need to try and get it bumped up to the fast track.


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DancingDad
post Fri, 8 Nov 2019 - 00:46
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 23:35) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 7 Nov 2019 - 23:33) *
As it happened the judge did ask me direct and I answered truthfully.

That's the sort of thing that makes me think if I'm ever a defendant in a small claim track case, I need to try and get it bumped up to the fast track.

You had to be there.
By the time the question was asked, I was very much of the opinion that it did not matter, I thnk the Judge asked not in any attempt to get me to admit "guilt" but so he could ask me a couple of direct questions that only the driver could answer.
Did I park?.... No
Did I pick up or drop anyone off?... No
He then immediately found in my favour.
The judge did make the point throughout that it was for BW to prove their case, not for me to defend.
I'm still not sure how that matches SP's points or indeed my own thoughts.
To me if someone makes an accusation, I need to defend in some respect.
How it would have gone had I not included the tale of the driver getting jammed in an overcrowded and badly managed car park, dunno.
I cannot agree that "reasonable assumption" can be enough when it could have been one of two simply on who was insured.
And not when it is speculative because they ignore the requirements that the law stipulates for Owner Liability and try to bluff it.
But that is not to say that a court wouldn't
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