Britannia PCN Falsely Issued |
Britannia PCN Falsely Issued |
Sun, 7 Oct 2018 - 19:36
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#1
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 7 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,266 |
I have done some reading on here and MSE but I’m still a little unsure about the whole thing so I’m hoping someone can help me.
The driver parked at Quayside car park in Poole a couple of weeks ago, and I received a PCN from Britannia Parking last week. The contravention they are claiming occurred is ‘failed to make a valid payment’. Now I’m really not sure what this means, they’re either claiming no payment was made, the driver overstayed or there was an error inputting the reg – I’m guessing they are the only 3 options? In any case, a ticket was 100% purchased (cash unfortunately), the time would not have been overstayed, and it’s unlikely the reg was input incorrectly. It was however absolutely pouring with rain so I suppose there is a chance this could have hindered the operation of the machine and perhaps this is the most likely option. Unfortunately as the NTK didn’t arrive until a week and a half later, the driver no longer has the ticket. The driver has been through the bins just incase and it’s long gone! The only evidence is two witnesses (plus weirdly enough a photo of driver and 1 witness next to the machine, including date stamp – any use at all??). The driver is not not local to Poole so can’t even take any photos of the signage incase this would help. I’m guessing some further ammo is needed, so I’m hoping some eagle-eyed person can spot something in the NTK that can also be used? I have read it through, plus POFA legislation but I don’t see anything. Had I not been so certain that the driver had made a valid payment, I would just put it down to one of those things, but a ticket absolutely was purchased. Presumably I do need to appeal within the 14 days incase I am unsuccessful? Any advice is much appreciated! This post has been edited by amber10: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 12:13 |
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Sun, 7 Oct 2018 - 19:36
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Sun, 7 Oct 2018 - 19:44
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 18,751 Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Member No.: 32,130 |
QUOTE I parked at Quayside car park in Poole a couple of weeks ago, and received a PCN from Britannia Parking last week. The contravention they are claiming occurred is ‘failed to make a valid payment’. Now I’m really not sure what this means, they’re either claiming no payment was made, the driver overstayed or there was an error inputting the reg – I’m guessing they are the only 3 options? In any case, a ticket was 100% purchased (cash unfortunately), the time would not have been overstayed, and it’s unlikely the reg was input incorrectly. It was however absolutely pouring with rain so I suppose there is a chance this could have hindered the operation of the machine and perhaps this is the most likely option. Submit the appeal in the NEWBIES thread from MSE, which I edited this weekend: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...d.php?t=4816822 It now includes the words: QUOTE Since your PCN is a vague template, I require all photos taken, a clear image of the signage and an explanation of the allegation (e.g. if you have identified a wrong VRN input at a machine, say so, and explain why your Data Protection Officer has not simply rectified it, rather than trying to punish a driver for a matter where there is nothing to deter). Then you will know, and if they come back saying it was a wrong VRN then you can fire back a Rectification Notice under the GDPR, which have featured recently in loads of MSE threads about wring VRNs. It requires the scammers Data Protection Officer to rectify what they know is inaccurate data... You'd also have a POPLA code which last for 32 days, so don't miss that deadline at the time - but that will be step 3. . Also isn't Poole Quay under Poole Harbour Byelaws? Look them up, look for a map and tell us. It makes a difference to the POPLA appeal in due course. |
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Sun, 7 Oct 2018 - 20:27
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 2,053 Joined: 20 May 2013 Member No.: 62,052 |
Edit your post to avoid hinting who the driver was. It's always "the driver parked", never "I / my wife / my son / etc parked"
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Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 19:33
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#4
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 7 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,266 |
Thank you both for your replies - original post now edited.
The appeal template is what I was going to use, thank you for this. Re. Poole Harbour Bylaws, I have spent a lot of time this evening searching but I am really not sure what I'm looking for. I have been looking at the 'harbour limits' section of 'The Poole Harbour Revision Order 2012' but it is written in such a way that unfortunately it makes little sense to me, but it does seem to relate to the water only. Would this be the correct legislation? To clarify, I am not expecting someone to do this for me. If I'm not looking at the correct legislation perhaps you might be able to advise how I would find it? |
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Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 19:50
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
Please provide links to the byelaw provisions you have seen.
Please also post a link to the Google Street View location, with an indication of the nearby shops, where the vehicle was parked. There's a possibility we are in byelaw territory. -------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 20:13
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#6
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 7 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,266 |
This is the only official document I am able to find, it is not about byelaws specifically but does mention them, and the harbour limits: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/1777/schedule/1/made As I say this may not be right.
This is the street view location - it is near to the restaurant La Lupa: https://www.google.com/maps/@50.7124638,-1....6384!8i8192 |
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Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 17:25
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
Ah! That looks highly unlikely to be subject to byelaws so we are dealing with breaches of PoFA to win this, unless some detailed land ownership and byelaws provision comes to light. Prima facie, that appears to be a very slim chance.
Initial appeal, which will be refused, to get a POPLA code; then both barrels to POPLA. Post your initial appeal here for checking before you send it. This post has been edited by cabbyman: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 17:28 -------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 17:44
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#8
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 7 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,266 |
Thank you for confirming. My draft appeal is below, however their online appeals system is very sneaky and requires you to select your association with the vehicle in question at the time of the contravention (keeper or driver). In these circumstances, as there is nothing amiss on the NTK (as far as I can see) is there a need to keep the identity of the driver from them? I absolutely do not trust that a letter would not get 'lost' in the post leaving my only option online.
Appeal: You issued me with a parking charge on 1st October 2018 which I believe was unlawfully issued. I decline your invitation to name the driver, which is not required of me as the keeper of the vehicle. There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. I will not be paying your demand for payment for the following reason: • The alleged contravention did not occur Your letter fails to provide any information on what you believe the problem to be aside from ‘failed to make a valid payment.’ This is false. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require all photos taken, a clear image of the signage and an explanation of the allegation (e.g. if you have identified a wrong VRN input at a machine, say so, and explain why your Data Protection Officer has not simply rectified it, rather than trying to punish a driver for a matter where there is nothing to deter, and no payments lost). Either way, this is incorrect, a valid ticket was purchased by cash around 13:14/13:15, printed and displayed appropriately. Unfortunately since your letter arrived nearly two weeks later, rather unsurprisingly I no longer have the ticket to prove this, however two witnesses are able to confirm a valid ticket was purchased and displayed. I also have photographic evidence of myself and one of the witnesses at the ticket machine at 13:14 (date stamp included), one minute after entering the car park if required. As a ticket was purchased and displayed I will not be paying the charge. Additionally, I understand that you experience ongoing problems with your ANPR equipment, this clearly cannot be trusted. I trust that you have sufficient information to cancel this unlawful ticket and will not be liaising with you further. If you choose to continue to claim that a payment was not made please elaborate. I have absolutely no qualms about taking this further via POPLA and will be making a formal complaint about Britannia Parking due to the distress this false parking charge has caused me. |
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Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 17:49
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
NO! Reword it to avoid identifying the driver. PoFA failures will ONLY apply to the RK who they don't need to worry about if they know the driver! It is the RK who needs to write that letter.
-------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 18:16
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#10
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 7 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,266 |
What have I missed? I haven't identified the driver, just confirmed that I am the keeper. However my query still stands, if there is nothing I can go after re. POFA then what purpose does withholding the information serve? I only ask as this means I cannot complete the online form, it is a mandatory field.
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Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 18:41
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
It's not what you have missed; there is far too much detail. There's no need to talk about missing tickets. That gives them the driver's identity and an opportunity to falsify evidence.
Do as SRM suggested in post #2. IN fact, use her appeal verbatim. Ultimately, as long as you don't reveal the driver, it doesn't really matter what you put in the first appeal; you're only after the POPLA code. -------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 19:02
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#12
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 7 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,266 |
Ok thank you, so what will the basis of my POPLA appeal be? Realistically I have nothing, other than my word against Britannia's. This is very stressful, and I have no idea if there is even a chance I could be successful.
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Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 19:35
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 18,751 Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Member No.: 32,130 |
QUOTE I have no idea if there is even a chance I could be successful. We do. Some 95% or more of POPLA appeals we help with, do win. The usual POPLA templates are in the 3rd post of the MSE NEWBIES thread. But for now, use the blue writing appeal template from the first post of the sticky that I linked for you. Your draft appeal looked like you'd gone and read MSE's rubbish article about appealing; the style wasn't what the forums say to send. The template appeal from MSE forum already contains the words you want, and I quoted some of it, so not sure how you wandered off to read a wholly unhelpful and uninformed MSE article and copied what looks like that format instead. |
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Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 08:41
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
The basis of your POPLA appeal is - look at other damned POPLA appeals first! BEfore exclaiming yuo have "nothing" you actually read around and realise that signage, standing and amount being hidden oin signs, PLUS POFA COMPLIANCE, appear on all appeals where teh driver was not identified!
So far from "your word agaisnt theres" you have a huge amount. |
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