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Wembley Retail Park UK Parking Patrol Office, Penalty charge notice- overstayed 26 minutes clocks ticking..help!
mum25
post Wed, 22 Aug 2018 - 19:55
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Hello helpful community,

Please could you help me with the penalty charge notice that has appeared on my doormat? I'm afraid it got lost in a pile of post and was only opened today so the 14 days to pay the reduced fine has elapsed.


I have tried searching the forum and am not sure if it's OK to ignore this one, I saw some that were told to ignore private tickets whilst someone else was taken to court.

I was not the driver at the time but been told that the signs were not prominent, purchase was made at the retail park as they went to Mcdonalds for a meal, no receipt , but should appear on the bank statement of the driver. I am a worrier so would be grateful if anyone could advise me the best way to play this one or has experience/knowledge of this company.

Thank you for any assstance.

mum25
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post Wed, 22 Aug 2018 - 19:55
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mum25
post Wed, 22 Aug 2018 - 20:13
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Apologies helpful community I can't upload my picture it's too big, gonna go find a toddler more tech savvy than me unsure.gif
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ostell
post Wed, 22 Aug 2018 - 21:01
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Upload the picture to another site and link to it from here.

Leave the dates on the pcn but remove identifying details

P. S. It's not a penalty, it's no more than an invoice. How about photos of the signs?
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Steve_999
post Wed, 22 Aug 2018 - 21:28
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QUOTE (mum25 @ Wed, 22 Aug 2018 - 21:13) *
Apologies helpful community I can't upload my picture it's too big, gonna go find a toddler more tech savvy than me unsure.gif


This site is simple to use for uploading images:
https://imgbb.com/
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mum25
post Thu, 23 Aug 2018 - 17:11
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Thank you for the tips

I think this is it, again, I'm so grateful to you all that take the time.


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mum25
post Mon, 3 Sep 2018 - 18:12
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Help please!

I received this reminder through the post this morning, I am the nervous type, tried to forget about it but I think my post got lost because I didn't know how to fit my picture to the forum. I know theses tickets come thick and fast now so many drivers needing help. Please could anyone advise me how to deal with this ticket. I wasn't driving, the driver overstayed 28 minutes. I would be very grateful.

Many thanks
Mum25
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ManxRed
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 07:37
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Is there anything on the reverse of either the original Parking Charge Notice, or the reminder? Is there any reference to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, or pursuing the Registered Keeper as being liable for the ticket? Please tell us, as this will have an impact on what you write to them.

As this is an IPC member, the most that you can do is submit an appeal to UKPPO, which they will reject regardless of what you put, and then ignore the flurry of threatening follow up letters UNLESS you receive a Letter Before Claim from either UKPPO or a solicitor, or a Claim Form, in which case come back for advice. Do not appeal to the IAS - this is a sham appeals service dressed up to look like an official body.

At no time should you call them (keep everything in writing), and at no time should you imply who was driving, although I note that you were not the driver, so I would recommend you state that. You are under no legal obligation to name the driver.

This post has been edited by ManxRed: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 07:38


--------------------
Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 08:16
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QUOTE (mum25 @ Wed, 22 Aug 2018 - 20:55) *
I saw some that were told to ignore private tickets whilst someone else was taken to court.

Generally no-one here is told to ignore tickets since 2012, the exception being if either the event occurred, or the recipient lives, outside of England and Wales or have already gone outside the sensible time to appeal.

Try NOT to forget about it!


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
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mum25
post Wed, 5 Sep 2018 - 17:56
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Thank you ManxRed for taking the time, and I will not forget now that I know it's important and that I need to do something more.

I have read the back of both the ticket and reminder they are exactly the same, can't see anything to do with the Protection of Freedom Act but does ask if you were not the driver of the vehicle when the contravention occurred please provide details to identify the driver.... I have pasted the back of the reminder below. I will return the Transfer of liability slip and will state that ' I am under no obligation to name the driver.' Do I also have to do an appeal at the same time?



This post has been edited by mum25: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 - 18:05
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Redivi
post Wed, 5 Sep 2018 - 18:09
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It doesn't mention the Protection of Freedoms Act but the front page of the Notice to Keeper contains the required warning about the right to recover payment from the keeper
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mum25
post Thu, 6 Sep 2018 - 06:27
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Hi, thanks Redivi, I'm sorry but does that mean I have to do things differently? Could you or anyone else advise how I need to approach this PCN and reminder and the order that I need to do things? I would be grateful
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 6 Sep 2018 - 09:00
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It means they have the right to recover from the keeper the amount on the Notice to Keeper.

Post 7 already told you exactly what to do: You appeal ONCE and ONCE ONLY, directly to the PPC. They will reject.
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mum25
post Thu, 6 Sep 2018 - 16:21
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Hi all, Some research later I have come up with the draft below, could you advise if this would be adequate in the first instance, I will also return the transfer f liability slip and advise that I do not know the details of the driver except his name was Bob...would that work?

Dear UKPO

My appeal as the registered keeper is as follows:
1. Insufficient grace period
2. The Notice to Keeper does not conform with the statutory requirements of schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and therefore UKPPO can no longer hold the registered keeper liable for the parking charge
3. Unfair treatment
4. The sum sought is not representative of any loss suffered by either UKPPO or the Landowner as a result of the driver's actions
5. Inadequate signage

1. No period of grace given for the driver to read the additional signs within the car park, or to exit the car park following the parking period.

Photographs taken show merely the time of entry into and exit from the car park but do not establish the time at which the car was parked.

The BPA Code of Practice (13.2) states that parking operators "should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission, you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action." As stated previously, the entrance signs to this car park are insufficient to allow the driver to decide whether parking in the car park would breach any contract. The additional sign is within the car park and past the point where the ANPR camera has captured an entry time and therefore a grace period should be given to read the additional sign and decide whether to adhere to the terms of the contract or leave the car park.

Kevin Reynolds, Head of Public Affairs and Policy at BPA states that:

‘There is a difference between ‘grace’ periods and ‘observation’ periods in parking and that good practice allows for this.

“An observation period is the time when an enforcement officer should be able to determine what the motorist intends to do once in the car park. The BPA’s guidance specifically says that there must be sufficient time for the motorist to park their car, observe the signs, decide whether they want to comply with the operator’s conditions and either drive away or pay for a ticket,” he explains.

“No time limit is specified. This is because it might take one person five minutes, but another person 10 minutes depending on various factors, not limited to disability.”

The BPA’s guidance defines the ‘grace period’ as the time allowed after permitted or paid-for parking has expired but before any kind of enforcement takes place.

Kelvin continues: “In the instance of a PCN being issued while a ticket is being purchased, the operator has clearly not given the motorist sufficient time to read the signs and comply as per the operator’s own rules. If a motorist decides they do not want to comply and leaves the car park, then a reasonable period of time should be provided also.”’

In addition, the BPA Code of Practice (13.4) states that the parking operators “should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted”

During a BPA Professional Development and Standards Board meeting in July 2015 it was formally agreed that relevant changes to the Code of Practice would be made to ensure compliance with the DfT guidelines regarding grace periods.

The driver of the car at the time was captured by ANPR cameras driving in to the car park at 17:25 and driving out at 19:14 on the same date. They were unable to park immediately upon entering the car park due to congestion from other vehicles, on top of that time to digest, read and understand the poorly laid out sign.

2. The Notice to Keeper does not conform with the statutory requirements of schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and therefore UKPPO can no longer hold the registered keeper liable for the parking charge

3. Unfair Treatment

The PCN delivered by post is represented in an unfair manner. The 14 day dicount period is not the fair regulated amount of 50% (half the full amount of £100) required, resulting in this PCN to be lawfully disgarded.

4. The sum sought is not representative of any loss suffered by either Highview or the Landowner as a result of the driver's actions

5. The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself

There was no contract nor agreement on the 'parking charge' at all. It is submitted that the driver did not have a fair opportunity to read about any terms involving this huge charge, which is out of all proportion and not saved by the dissimilar 'ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis' case.

Therefore it is respectfully requested that this parking charge request appeal be upheld on every point.

Yours mum25


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ostell
post Thu, 6 Sep 2018 - 17:10
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2) Spell out chapter and verse the reasons for the POFA failures
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mum25
post Thu, 6 Sep 2018 - 17:39
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Thank you so much Ostell,

I will add at point 2:

Section 8 (2) © states; ‘specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates.
’Section 9 (2) (f) states; warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given—
‘(i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and
(ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,
the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid.’
In the NTK received to myself by you (UK Parking Patrol Office) states; ‘Please be warned: that if after the 28 days beginning with the day after that on which this Notice is given (i) the amount of the unpaid Parking Charge specified in this Notice has not been paid in full, and (ii) we do not know the both the name of the driver and a current address for services for the driver, we.’ You (UK Parking Patrol Office) have not complied to have the keeper liable.

Will that be sufficient and should I return the transfer of Liability slip without specifying the driver completely?

Thank you
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mum25
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 09:22
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Anyone, please?
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ostell
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 12:33
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That will do by pointing out the actual failure. POPLA are not known for their willingness to look things up of their own volition.
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mum25
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 15:08
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Thank you Ostell and all others that helped me,I'm grateful to you.
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mum25
post Tue, 2 Oct 2018 - 18:20
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Hi, I'm back sleep.gif can mean only one thing.

In the end, I copied the template on the MSE site as below and thought I'd save the detailed reply for later

RE PCN:

I appeal and dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn, nor was there an agreed contract. Your signage terms fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence of the parking charge, as established inParkingEye Ltd v Beavis, which is fully distinguished.

Should you fail to cancel this PCN, I require with your rejection letter, all images taken of this vehicle & the signs at the location that day. Do not withhold any images or data later relied on for POPLA/court.

Firms of your ilk were unanimously condemned in 2018 as operating an 'outrageous scam' (Hansard 2.2.18). The BPA & IPC were heavily criticised too; hardly surprising for an industry where so-called AOS members admit to letting victims 'futilely go through the motions' of appeal and say on camera 'we make it up sometimes' (BBC Watchdog).

I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner, as well as complaining in writing to my MP and ensuring that they are appraised of the debate where Parliament agreed unanimously: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists...should not have to put up with this''.

Formal note:

Service of any rejection letter/POPLA code and/or legal documents by email is expressly disallowed. All responses to me from this point on, must be made by post. Regardless of any MCOL online/email system, service of any court claim must only be made by first class post to the latest address provided by me.

To reiterate, I was not the driver of the vehicle at the time of issue of the PCN. Purchase was made at the retail park at McDonalds for which proof is available if required.

There was a disabled occupant who is a blue badge holder, he uses a walking stick, please find attached a copy of his badge. I think you will agree that in this instance, a 26 minute overstay should be treated with some sympathy.

Yours faithfully,

Their reply was:


Dear Sir/Madam,

Thank you for your communication regarding the above Parking Charge Notice (PCN).

Please be advised that the time in which to submit a challenge has now expired and access to the Independent Appeals Service is no longer available.

However, in order to resolve the matter, I will offer the following comments as to why this PCN was correctly issued and is still payable:

The site in question is subject to terms and conditions, which are stated on signs throughout the area. Those signs clearly state: “90 Minutes Maximum stay, No Return Within 1 Hour”, see attached.

Dear Sir/Madam,

Thank you for your communication regarding the above Parking Charge Notice (PCN).

Please be advised that the time in which to submit a challenge has now expired and access to the Independent Appeals Service is no longer available.

However, in order to resolve the matter, I will offer the following comments as to why this PCN was correctly issued and is still payable:

The site in question is subject to terms and conditions, which are stated on signs throughout the area. Those signs clearly state: “90 Minutes Maximum stay, No Return Within 1 Hour”, see attached. With a picture of the signage

What should I do now please can anyone advise? Oh please ohmy.gif
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 09:50
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Nothing!
You ignore anything but a LBA or a Court Claim form.
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