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£2000 of tickets - Permit expired without us knowing or being informed, Need help - have appealed but told to contact debt recovery or IAS
alfxlon
post Thu, 11 May 2017 - 15:32
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Hi Everyone,

I’d be really grateful if someone could help with this as it’s getting really stressful – 12 tickets each at £160 and mounting. I’ve trawled through the other threads to find exact answers but I’m still unclear what to.

Basically I park my car in my friend’s apartment car park (with permit displayed). My friend who owns the space is also named insured driver. Neither of us really use the car or see it that often as we both cycle or use public transport.

Anyway, I needed to use the car recently but found a load of tickets on it (from private parking management company). I had no idea what they were for so I phoned up the debt collection company who eventually told me it was because my permit had expired. We had no idea this had happened because our existing permit had no expiry date written on it. Also they never wrote to him telling him they’d expired the permit or issued him with a new one. Because my place (where vehicle is registered) is a building site at the moment I’m living at a forwarding address, all the notices came through late to me so was delayed in appealing.

Anyway for each of these tickets I get a separate correspondence. They’re now coming from a debt collection agency (TRACE) and now letters from solicitors Gladstone’s requesting payment (with increasing costs).

I wrote to the PCN company with the letter of appeal (see below) and they wrote back saying they are unable to process my appeal as my case is with one of their external debt collection agencies and I’d need to contact them. They say I can appeal through IAS (see response letter below).

My question is, what’s the best thing to do now? Should I appeal through IAS? Other options? £2000 plus seems excessive especially as they didn’t inform us or provide new permit!!

Would really appreciate any help

many thanks


<I anonymised the letter – I’m Mr C and registered Keeper. Mr S is owner of the car space and permit and insured driver on vehicle>

Dear Sir / Madam

Vehicle Registration Number: XYZ
Ticket References:
PCM Ref Date of Issue PCN ticket Description Reason later established by calling TRACE Debt recovery
PM1 07/10/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit No permit displayed
PM2 05/11/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM3 07/11/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM4 12/11/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM5 15/11/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM6 19/11/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM7 22/11/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM8 03/12/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM9 13/12/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM10 11/01/2017 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM11 17/01/2017 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit
PM12 29/01/2017 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit

We are writing to appeal the above parking charges. Owing to the circumstances explained below we believe that the tickets have been unfairly issued because of administration issues of the parking management company (Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd) and other circumstances beyond our control.

We can confirm that ‘Mr S’ is resident owner in the building (address of building where tickets were issued managed by PCM) and owner of the parking space occupied by the vehicle (Registration XYZ). He is fully paid-up in terms of his building service charges which include financial contribution to the management of the car park and entitlement to a valid parking permit. ‘Mr C’ is the registered owner of the vehicle and we are close friends. ‘Mr S’ is a named insured driver on the vehicle (see attached evidence).

We note that all of the parking tickets except the first relate to “displaying an expired permit”. This information was only recently established (18/4/17) by contacting the debt recovery agency, TRACE as this information isn’t stated on any of the parking control notices or correspondences relating to the charges.

We can truthfully inform you that we had no awareness that the permit had expired. This is owing to three administration issues caused by the parking management company as follows:

1. The permit supplied by the parking management company that was displayed in the vehicle has no expiry date written on it (see photocopy evidence of permit supplied).
2. ‘Mr S’ received no correspondence from the parking management company informing him of the expiry of the existing permit.
3. ‘Mr S’ has not been supplied with a new permit.

As ‘Mr S’ pays for parking facilities through his service charge, we feel it’s reasonable to expect the parking management company to make adequate arrangements to inform him of the decision to invalidate his existing permit (given there was no expiry date on the permit) and provide him with a new one. This is something the parking management company failed to do. As a result neither of us was aware that the parking management company had invalidated the displayed permit and required us to display a new one.

It is relevant to inform you that the vehicle is rarely used or viewed by either of us as we generally cycle and / or use London public transport. Because of this, there became a build-up of tickets on the vehicle without us noticing. However, we note that not all of the tickets have been recovered from the vehicle as some appear to have been removed without our knowledge (we are not in possession of these tickets). A comprehensive list of ticket numbers has subsequently been established by phoning the number on debt recovery letters received at the registered owners address, ‘Mr C’, at <registered vehicle address>. However, these letters were received late owing to the property being under renovation and the charge notices arriving delayed (and in bulk) at ‘Mr C’s forwarding address at <Mr C’s forwarding address>.

Given the circumstances detailed above, I would be grateful if you could retract the charges relating to displaying an expired permit. In relation to the first charge (PM1), the permit had fallen down the dash and wasn’t displayed (as shown in the photographic evidence). This was our fault and we are happy to pay this charge however, owing to the same issues described above, we request that that the initial charge of £60 is applied as part of this appeal?

Can I also ask that you supply ‘Mr S’ with a valid permit as he is still not in receipt of one and unable to use the space which has been paid for. Also, please note that the car has now been sold (as we have nowhere to park) and ‘Mr C’ is no longer the registered owner of the vehicle.

I look forward to hearing from you

Yours Sincerely

‘Mr S’ & ‘Mr C’


Dear Mr C

Thank you for your correspondence regarding above Parking Charge Notice (PCN).

We are unable to process your appeal as your case is with one of our external debt collection agencies. You will now need to contract them regarding your case, all contact details for them can be found on previous correspondence they have sent you.

Debt Recovery Plus Ltd - <Telephone number>
Trace Debt Recovery Uk Ltd - <Telephone number>

The Independent Appeals Service (www.IAS.org) provides an Alternative Dispute Resolution scheme for disputes of this type. Debt Recovery Companies will not engage with the IAS Non-Standard Appeals Service at this stage

Yours Sincerely
PCM Appeals Team
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post Thu, 11 May 2017 - 15:32
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alfxlon
post Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 09:52
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We Won! ….claim dismissed!! wav.gif

The Judge ruled:
The Defendant has not leased the parking space in question but has exclusive privilege to use it reserved under the lease in the second schedule. The car park has approximately xx spaces and access to the car park is by fobs held by leaseholders. The Defendant also has exclusive privilege to use his terrace.
The Freeholder covenants under the lease to repair the car parking spaces under clause xxx which are categorised separately from the common parts at xxx. The Leaseholder must comply with the Freeholder’s regulations. The Freeholder may make regulations regarding ‘other matters’ which are necessary for the orderliness of the common parts (Clause xx). The imposition of controlled parking is not over the common parts as interpreted for the purposes of the imposition of regulations. The lease gives similar right to exclusive and unregulated use of the Defendant’s terrace which is not included in the demised premises. In any event, even if the parking space was a common part that can be subject to regulation, controlled parking is not reasonable as it is not necessary for the safety and orderliness of the Building in circumstances where only the Leaseholders can access the car park. The imposition of controlled parking was an unlawful infringement on the Defendant’s pre-existing right to unregulated use of his car parking space. He therefore did not provide any contractual consideration or acceptance of the terms of the Claimants contract when he parked in his space.


On the day, it wasn’t a particularly pleasant experience as we had long delays (4hours) in the waiting room waiting for a judge to become available (long backlog apparently). The Claimant didn’t show up and asked for it to be “heard on paper” which I took as a good sign, however, it meant the judge was making the arguments on the Claimant’s behalf after reading their papers in detail (me vs the judge)…it didn’t help that the court admin hadn’t included the our witness statement in the judge’s pack so the judge basically scanned our copy when we handed it over in the court room. In the end, everything from our perspective had to be communicated and argued verbally. Knowing the case law that supported the key arguments was important particularly when the argument wasn’t going our way.

The key points seemed to be:
1. The parking space is granted in the lease as an exclusive privilege (my argument: this meant this was as good as demised)
2. The parking space is granted identically to the Defendant’s private terrace – (again exclusive privilege – as good as demised).
3. The parking space is detailed in the lease separately to the common parts (i.e. not part of the common parts)
4. The car park is secure gated with fob entry so the addition of controlled parking wasn’t deemed “reasonable” - I got the impression the judge may have ruled differently if the car park were not secured and open to abuse from non-residents / public - so would require a bit more persuasive argument.

The Judge said that the Defence document was too long. In hindsight, I wish I kept the defence statement much more brief, only putting in defence points on which a judge could fully dismiss a claim. I have my doubts about the long spiel about particulars of claim lacking specificity and breaches of protocols etc – I think this just annoyed the judge as extra waffle to read through. Also, in the documentation I probably spent a bit too long arguing lease has primacy when I don’t think this was ever really disputed– so just a couple of lines asserting this fact probably would have been enough (in our case anyway).

OK….I just wanted to say a massive thanks to all those who helped along the way to get this case dismissed – I certainly couldn’t have done it without you!! …and I have definitely learnt a lot!!…

Hopefully, this is all over but could potentially see you all again if they still decide to come after me for the remaining 11 charges… I think this ruling (and my newly gained experience) will be very beneficial if that happens biggrin.gif
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ManxRed
post Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 09:58
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My understanding is that they cannot come after you for the remaining charges, but someone more knowledgeable will quote the latin reference that confirms this!

What a brilliant result. Well done. Have a few drinks!


--------------------
Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 10:23
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Res Juidicata

You may want to send thema letter reminding them of this, and that if they fail to cancel all charges and cease their harassment, and are so foolish as to issue a claim, you will
1) Apply for it to be struck out, at their full cost
2) Will apply for a counterclaim for harassment
3) Will seek an injunction against them AND the MA.
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hexaflexagon
post Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 10:35
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My hearty congratulations and well done for being able to adapt to frustrations on the day without being phased.

Well done.

biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
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Redivi
post Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 11:11
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Well done

I would be posting that decision on the residents' notice board

I would also be telling the management agent to kick PCM UK offsite
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The Rookie
post Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 11:19
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Well done, shows how important understanding your defence is.

You need to communicate this to the MA and instruct them to immediately put a halt to their agent's harassment of you.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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nigelbb
post Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 11:30
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 12:11) *
Well done

I would be posting that decision on the residents' notice board

I would also be telling the management agent to kick PCM UK offsite

Well done!

As Redivi says be sure to pass on the good news to all other interested parties.


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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Eljayjay
post Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 17:49
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Very well done!

In case you want to google res judicata, that is the correct spelling. It literally means "a judged thing". As others have already indicated, it is similar to double jeopardy in a criminal case - the same claimant cannot come after you again over the same issues.
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SchoolRunMum
post Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 18:28
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VERY well done from me too, did you ask for your costs or weren't bothered? Did you not mention the other 11 PCNs and ask for an order that essentially covers them too and stops the scumbags from even trying a drip by drip set of claims once a month till you fail or fold on one?

To cover your position up front, I agree you should write to PCM and copy in the MA, as suggested here:


QUOTE (Redivi @ Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 12:11) *
Well done

I would be posting that decision on the residents' notice board

I would also be telling the management agent to kick PCM UK offsite



QUOTE
Res Judicata

You may want to send thema letter reminding them of this, and that if they fail to cancel all charges and cease their harassment, and are so foolish as to issue a claim, you will
1) Apply for it to be struck out, at their full cost
2) Will apply for a counterclaim for harassment
3) Will seek an injunction against them AND the MA.





P.S. can you tell us your claim number, court and name of Judge, to help others including this person (could even be a neighbour of yours if the same site):

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=123511

Same scam exactly.
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