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Topher PCN appeal rejection
bigdog77
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 20:19
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Having followed several posts here and elsewhere we responded to a PCN from Topher Limited for an overstay at Homebase in Bath, despite the store being shut.
We noted the PCN was issued outside the 14 day period, it was addressed to me as the registered keeper as is the appeal rejection despite my partner writing back to the PCN as the driver.

We offered consideration for the loss we believe they may have suffered - which is based on other local parking costs,
further it was unclear according to my partner that any parking restrictions applied.

We have received the attached response

[i]We are in receipt of your communication, the contents of which are noted.

We have been instructed by our Client, in relation to an outstanding PCN the current balance of which is noted above (£100). Details of the PCN have been provided previously.

We have reviewed your offer of £10 in full and final settlement of this matter. After careful consideration of this offer,
we regret to advise you that we are unable to accept the same. In line with this , please accept this letter as confirmation that your offer has been declined.

To this end, please find enclosed your returned cheque

Our Client instructions remains the same insomuch as payment of the full balance is now required. In the abscence of such payment within fouteen (14) days,
please be advised that your account may be passed to our appointed debt recovery agency for recovery action without further notice on our part."
[/i]


As stated above the rejection to our appeal has ben addressed to me as the keeper and not the driver
further the amount of charge on the signage is £85 / reduced to £50 not a £100

I am minded to send the attached but think i need some fed back please

Data Protection Act 1998 - Section 10 Data Subject Notice
PCN 504362 - Alleged overstay at Pines Way, Bath Avon Homebase car parking area on the 25th May 2018

Dear Sirs,

A letter was previously written to you in response to the issued PCN charge Notice, in which it was highlighted that you had failed to comply with
Point 9 Sub Para (5) as per the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) which states that the notice period for issue of said notice is 14 days deadline
with which you failed to comply and by failing to get the NTK within the specified deadline of 14 days you have failed to follow the Protection of Freedom Act (PoFA) and the Data Protection Act(DPA) rules.

Further as stated in the response I was not the driver and therefore cannot be held liable for the said parking charge notice.

A donation was also gave which was considered compensation for the loss suffered, together with a statement that this was our final offer and that
no further correspondence would be entered into. It is also noted that the charge does not reflect the signage (having returned to review and photograph the signage at the
location in which the driver parked the car)

Further you have rejected the offer made and are continuing to chase the keeper of the vehicle and not the driver as stated.

It is also noted that whilst you have rejected the offer you have also failed to address your correspondence to the driver as previously advised, also it should be noted that
having just lost a father and a mother to dementia the driver is of a very nervous nature and is suffering from high levels of depression.

Your rejection notice also fails to provide us with a course for appeal so require the 10 digit verification code so we may approach POPLA.

Further in the response it was stated that we consider the charge levied as being punitive and not at reasonable level to recompense for the parking overstay which extended into a
period when the store was closed and the car park being virtually empty.
This matter has also been raised with Homebase with whom we do a significant amount of shopping as it is felt that this course of action may not be in their best interest.

It was also highlighted that the area in which the car was parked were not clearly marked with parking notices which categorically confirmed that the parking restrictions applied to hours
when the store was closed and assumed to be non restricted.
It is also noted that in your response that you are threatening that the debt maybe passed to the appointed debt recovery agency, which again I suggest if you pass on my details you will be in
breach of the data protection and an infringement of my legal writes and will be seen as harassment.
I therefore request that you cease correspondence with me, failure to do so will be seen as being a total disregard of my rights and the relevant acts,
I therefore demand that you immediately cease and desist from processing my data any further, excepting as required by the DPA that you confirm within 21 days that you will comply with the demand above or explain to me why you are continuing to harass me.
I look forward to your reply as per the Statutory Terms.

Thank you.

Yours sincerely,


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post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 20:19
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Redivi
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 20:41
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Topher is a member of the International Parking Community not the British Parking Association
POPLA is not available

DPA, now the GDPR, is a non-starter
The ICO holds that a parking company is entitled to continue processing information to demand payment even if it has no right under POFA

I would keep it simple

Dear Sir

Ref ****

I have received your letter dated ****

You are fully aware that I was not the driver and that you have no right to recover payment from me as the registered keeper
The matter is therefore closed

I will note the content of any further correspondence but will not reply

Yours Faithfully


Then file and ignore everything short of an actual Letter Before Claim
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Jlc
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 20:48
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QUOTE (bigdog77 @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 21:19) *
...despite my partner writing back to the PCN as the driver.

Please explain this - has the driver been revealed?

The good news is that they've never issued a court claim...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ostell
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 20:57
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So just go with the fact that they failed to deliver the Notice to keeper within 14 days and therefore no chance of keeper liability. Forget about identifying the driver. That way nobody gets to pay. Simple BOGOFF (search it) response
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bigdog77
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 21:08
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 21:48) *
QUOTE (bigdog77 @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 21:19) *
...despite my partner writing back to the PCN as the driver.

Please explain this - has the driver been revealed?

The good news is that they've never issued a court claim...



Hi

Yes my partner did give her details and address but still they addressed the response to me
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Jlc
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 21:12
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QUOTE (bigdog77 @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 22:08) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 21:48) *
QUOTE (bigdog77 @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 21:19) *
...despite my partner writing back to the PCN as the driver.

Please explain this - has the driver been revealed?

The good news is that they've never issued a court claim...



Hi

Yes my partner did give her details and address but still they addressed the response to me

So the argument about keeper liability falls flat as if they realise they have the driver's details...

Being outside 14 days doesn't invalidate the charge.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Arkle108
post Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 05:42
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I’ve just succeeded on having a case dismissed. There were two claims, one of which where the notification was received after 14 days. Despite all other defence this was all that was needed to mean there was no claim to answer. Even though the claimant advised that the delay was due to slow DVLA response. The Judge said this was a matter for the claimant and DVLA and irrelevant.
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Jlc
post Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 05:52
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Being over 14 days is irrelevant if the driver is known... there's no automatic invalidation.

If they didn’t know the driver then failing to comply with PoFA means they can only pursue the driver, not the keeper. (If only they didn't know the driver)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Arkle108
post Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 07:20
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Yes in my case driver was unknown.
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ostell
post Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 07:39
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They are still chasing the keeper so the outside of 14 days is still relevant. This should be used, together with any other failures, to reject the claim being made on the keeper. If partner wishes to pay then so be it but why should anybody pay?

Rather than the long winded letter the OP suggests in the first post then a simple BOGOFF response highlighting the POFA fail and then just ignore any further correspondence. Appealing to the IAS is not recommended.

Sirs

Ref PCN xxxxx VRM yyyyyy

I am the registered keeper of the above vehicle and am in receipt of the PCN you issued. I have no liability on this matter as you have failed to meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the prescribed relevant period of 14 days, contrary to section 9 (4) of the Act. You cannot therefore transfer liability from the driver at the time to me.

There is no legal requirement to identify the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc.


First class post and free Certificate of Posting from a Post Office.

Then just leave it. If they care to contact the partner then so be it.

This post has been edited by ostell: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 07:40
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bigdog77
post Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 23:05
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Thanks All

I'll try the simple response and then see if then chose to harass me or my partner, in which i case i may seek further advice

many thanks

Bigdog
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bigdog77
post Fri, 24 Aug 2018 - 21:16
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Dear All

I have now just received a further letter issued to me as the registered keeper - again failing to address the letter to the driver - who we unfortunately did notify them when responding to the original notice to keeper.

basically rejecting the appeal stating " the appeal has been rejected for the reason(s) detailed below

"your vehicle was observed as parked in an area of the site which allows motorists a maximum of 1.5hours stay and exceeding the time allowed. Notice of the terms and conditions of parking is served by way of numerous large signs. photographs of this parking event. Please note you can visit our website; www.paymypcn.net whereby you can review photographs of this event.

Please note, schedule 4 of POFA 2012 was not referenced within the notice to keeper, our client Topher Limited are entitled to write to the keeper in regards to driver information

you have reached the end of our internal appeals procedure and you have two options

1) pay £100
2) IAS

also because of events the letter was sent 10-08-2018 according to the notice - but has only now been received by me

then the usual threat of pay or we will pass onto appointed debt collection agency, with the additional of all costs

So just wondering what anyone would suggest next, seeing my previous note has been ignored, likewise the initial response where we gave the details of the driver, i know it wasn't me as i was on a train travelling from Newcastle at the time

any advice would be welcome, or do i just ignore

BIG DOG 77
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bigdog77
post Fri, 24 Aug 2018 - 21:26
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the other matter is that the original charge did not match the signs which suggest a £85 fine and if paid within 14 days would be reduced to £50 which was not offered. not sure if this is relevant
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Redivi
post Sat, 25 Aug 2018 - 00:46
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The IAS guarantees to reject at least 85% of appeals although it might struggle with a Notice to Keeper that clearly fails the conditions of POFA

You would have to decide whether to remind Topher that the driver has been named

Personally I would file and ignore all correspondence short of an actual Letter Before Claim
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ostell
post Sat, 25 Aug 2018 - 07:06
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One more letter, a final one, to them:


Sirs,

You are continuing to harass me with letters demanding money that I do not owe. Please refere to my previous letter and read them thoroughly and carefully. As I have said I have absolutely no liability in this matter as you failed to comply with most of the requirements of Schedule 4 of the protection of Freedoms Act to be able to transfer liability to me. I was not the driver at the time of the alleged breach.

If this illegal harassment continues I may consider action against you. I suggest you take the time to read the case Ferguson v British Gas, a case that cost British Gas in excess of £10,000.

Yours



send this both to the parking company and Topher. First class post with free Certificate of Posting from a post office. Then just wait and see what happens. No appeal to the IAS.
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Churchmouse
post Sun, 26 Aug 2018 - 21:36
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QUOTE (bigdog77 @ Fri, 24 Aug 2018 - 21:26) *
the other matter is that the original charge did not match the signs which suggest a £85 fine and if paid within 14 days would be reduced to £50 which was not offered. not sure if this is relevant

It would be another fail on the PPC's part. Can you prove what the signs said? The alleged contract was what was--at the relevant time--contained on the signs and the signs only--nothing they may ahve said later would have any effect on the terms of the alleged contract. Besides, any company or person using the name "Topher" deserves to lose badly...

--Churchmouse

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bigdog77
post Thu, 25 Oct 2018 - 12:41
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Dear All

Having not heard for a while i have now received the following letter

From CBS Solicitors

"we have been instructed by our client, the creditor, to prepare for possible legal proceedings in respect of this outstanding parking charge notice ('PCN'). Our client has previously contacted you requesting repayment of the outstanding debt.

you should make payment for the amount shown within 14 days of the date of this letter to avoid lega action from being instigated against you.

you can make payment on line with Ulitimat Customer Solutions at WWW.Contactus.com or by calling their online payment line on 03332 005 341. Alternatively you can put your proposals in respect of this debt in writing and address it to this office.

You should understand that if a claim is issued, and judgement is reqistered against you, this could seriously affect your ability to obtain credit in the future as the information will be made available via the Register of County Court Judgement, orders and fines and will remain there for 6 years.

If you are unsure about the content of this letter we urge you to seek independent legal advice

YS

CSB Solicitors

Charge has now gone upto £160

Not sure if this is a notice before claim or just a threat - can i ask for anyones advice on how to respond.

I was going to respond simply

Dear Sir

As i have now on several ocassions responded to your Client "Topher Limited" clearly stating that whilst i am the registered owner of th vehicle, i was not the driver, nor in the car or county on the date the alledged incident occured. I can no tbe held responsible for the actions of the driver. I also highlighted that if they or their agents continued to harrass me in respect of this alledged fault i would be looking for a counter action due to the impact it is having on me and my time responding. I therefore urge you to review all the correspondence issued in respect of this alledged claim. Further there can be no debt as there was no contract between your client nor me as i was not the driver.

Further the initial notification was issued outside of the 14 day notice period, further the notice didn't match the written notices which i have now visited and recorded not having been there previously.

I also requested that my details were removed from their data base, this obviously has not occured as they have ben passed onto yourselves which is a breech of my privacy.

Yours faithfully

bigdog


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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 25 Oct 2018 - 14:01
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No, it is not a letter before claim.

State that before threatening legal action you require a LBA complaint with the PAP for debt claims. You also require an explaantion oftheir cause of action against a Keeper where their client is aware they have not met the strict requirements of POFA 2012 to hold the keeper liable. If they fail to make this clear, and issue the standard woeful particulars of claim, you will apply to the court for the claim to be struck out, at their clients cost. You will hold them liable for all costs, including your time at the full rate, as there will be no costs protection. This i your only warning.
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Redivi
post Thu, 25 Oct 2018 - 15:14
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They not only failed to meet the requirements of POFA but the driver is known

I would keep the reply short and blunt

Dear Sir

Ref ****

I have received your letter dated ****

Your client knows perfectly well that I was not the driver and it has completely failed to meet the conditions of the Protection of Freedoms Act to recover payment from me as the registered keeper.
The legal action that you threaten has no prospect of success.

If you had troubled to read the correspondence before writing to me, you could have advised it accordingly.

Don't contact me again unless to either inform me that the matter is closed or you have enclosed a properly formatted Letter Before Claim in accordance with the Pre-action Protocol for Debt Claims.

I reserve my rights regarding costs and damages arising from your client's harassment, misuse of my personal information and unreasonable behaviour

Yours Faithfully


This post has been edited by Redivi: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 - 15:15
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bigdog77
post Thu, 25 Oct 2018 - 16:08
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Thanks both - will draft accordingly and respond to see what happens next
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