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LCP PCN Harslden Plaza Car Park
John Bravo
post Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 11:28
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Hi All,
This is a new PCN. I think this is becoming my new hobby :-)


The duration is 3h30min
The driver has paid for the 1st hour then was held by a physiotherapist and bought a ticket for another 1h. There is still 1h30min of unpaid parking.

This £100 does not look like a fair penalty considering the contravention.
Please advise.
Best regards,

This post has been edited by John Bravo: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 20:04
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post Sat, 2 Jun 2018 - 11:28
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 14:04
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Which is still an overstay outside of grace periods, so obviously POPLA will say thats a breach.

What does "held by the physio" mean? Appointment overran?
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John Bravo
post Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 14:06
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 15:04) *
Which is still an overstay outside of grace periods, so obviously POPLA will say thats a breach.

What does "held by the physio" mean? Appointment overran?

Correct
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 14:25
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So frustration of contract would be an obvious answer there!

It is a legal concept - for reaosns outside of their control, the driver was unable to comply with the terms of the proferred contract. The contract was therefore frustrated, and it is settled law that a ftrustrated contract cannot attract any charge. This is something the Operator would be well aware of gifven the nature of the site, and shoul dhave procedures to deal with.
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John Bravo
post Mon, 11 Jun 2018 - 22:17
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 15:25) *
So frustration of contract would be an obvious answer there!

It is a legal concept - for reaosns outside of their control, the driver was unable to comply with the terms of the proferred contract. The contract was therefore frustrated, and it is settled law that a ftrustrated contract cannot attract any charge. This is something the Operator would be well aware of gifven the nature of the site, and shoul dhave procedures to deal with.


Please can you point me out to some convincing sample I can use to express my frustration?
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 08:29
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Have you in the last week performed an obvious search or two?
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John Bravo
post Wed, 20 Jun 2018 - 23:51
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I have been so busy I had no time to look into it and I think the system basically exploits working people so they give up and pay this bloody £60-100.

I have found a thread here about "frustration of contract" at some other car park
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...20&start=20
not sure if this is usable.

I have also found some threads related to frustration
http://www.pepipoo.com/forums/lofiversion/...t105304-50.html
http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t113484.html

Someone has challenged at the very same location, but the decision was not optimistic:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...d.php?t=5522845

Not sure if I can use the wording from the 1st link.

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John Bravo
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 00:02
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By the way I am not the registered keeper so as who should appeal on their unsecure website http://lcpappeals.com ?

This post has been edited by John Bravo: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 11:59
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Redivi
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 08:10
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Wait until the registered keeper receives a Notice to Keeper
It will probably contain errors that will prevent LCP from recovering payment if they don't know who was driving

This forum never supports telling lies
They can bite back if the parking company recognises the case
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John Bravo
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 08:52
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Notice to keeper has been received nearly a month ago. The pictures of both sides are attached in my previous posts.
So far no one has found any problems with them.

This post has been edited by John Bravo: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 08:54
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 09:35
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Have you found any problems with them?
POfa schedule 4 para 9. Fairly simple list of requiremetns it must meet.
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John Bravo
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 09:49
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:35) *
Have you found any problems with them?
POfa schedule 4 para 9. Fairly simple list of requiremetns it must meet.



(1)A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to keeper for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(b) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.

(2)The notice must—

OK (a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;

I THINK OK (b)inform the keeper that the driver is required to pay parking charges in respect of the specified period of parking and that the parking charges have not been paid in full;

I MEAN IT SAYS ONLY ABOUT BREACH OF CONTRACT AND £60©describe the parking charges due from the driver as at the end of that period, the circumstances in which the requirement to pay them arose (including the means by which the requirement was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made them payable;

(d)specify the total amount of those parking charges that are unpaid, as at a time which is—

(i)specified in the notice; and

(ii)no later than the end of the day before the day on which the notice is either sent by post or, as the case may be, handed to or left at a current address for service for the keeper (see sub-paragraph (4));

OK (e)state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper—

OK (i)to pay the unpaid parking charges; or

OK (ii)if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver;

OK (f)warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given—

OK (i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and

OK (ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,

OK the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;

OK (g)inform the keeper of any discount offered for prompt payment and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available;

OK (h)identify the creditor and specify how and to whom payment or notification to the creditor may be made;

OK (i)specify the date on which the notice is sent (where it is sent by post) or given (in any other case).

OK (3)The notice must relate only to a single period of parking specified under sub-paragraph (2)(a) (but this does not prevent the giving of separate notices which each specify different parts of a single period of parking).

(4)The notice must be given by—

OK (a)handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or

OK (b)sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.

OK (5)The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended.

(OK 6)A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.

I THINK OK (7)When the notice is given it must be accompanied by any evidence prescribed under paragraph 10.

(8)In sub-paragraph (2)(g) the reference to arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints includes—

OK (a)any procedures offered by the creditor for dealing informally with representations by the keeper about the notice or any matter contained in it; and

OK (b)any arrangements under which disputes or complaints (however described) may be referred by the keeper to independent adjudication or arbitration.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:02
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Did they give the warnign to keeper, about them being liable 28 days starting the day after the notice is given? Thats usually messed up. Thats (f) above.

"breach of contract" is not a description of the circumstances.
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John Bravo
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:17
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:02) *
Did they give the warnign to keeper, about them being liable 28 days starting the day after the notice is given? Thats usually messed up. Thats (f) above.

"breach of contract" is not a description of the circumstances.

No more communication from them than just this Notice to Keeper.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:33
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I didnt ask if there was more communication

I asked specifically about the (f) requirement, which you have marked as OK. This is a commionly messed up area, where they give 28 days, or 29 days from date of issue, or 28 days frmo date of service, etc.
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John Bravo
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:39
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:33) *
I didnt ask if there was more communication

I asked specifically about the (f) requirement, which you have marked as OK. This is a commionly messed up area, where they give 28 days, or 29 days from date of issue, or 28 days frmo date of service, etc.


Ok, so it says in the NTK:
"If, after a period of 28 days, (beginning with the day after this notice is given), the amount requested in this Notice has not been paid in full, (or we have not informed of the driver's name and current address) you, the registered keeper will, if the conditions set out in Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedom Act 2012 are met, be liable to pay this unpaid Parking Charge"

This post has been edited by John Bravo: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:42
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:56
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Yep thats 92f covered.
damn.

But, as pointed out - they singularly failed to describe the circumstances. Breach of Contract itself does not describe any CONDUCT givnig raise to the charge.

This post has been edited by nosferatu1001: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 10:57
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John Bravo
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:11
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:56) *
Yep thats 92f covered.
damn.

But, as pointed out - they singularly failed to describe the circumstances. Breach of Contract itself does not describe any CONDUCT givnig raise to the charge.


Ok, so in this case should I go with procedural impropriety?
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:19
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No, why would you? Thats language for council tickets, where the term has actual meaning
They just have failed to meet the conditions specified in POFA including but not limited to... and as such you,a s keeper cannot be held liable. You suggest they contact the driver. You are not required to name them, and will not be doing so, and no adverse inference or assumption can be made.
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John Bravo
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:27
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Agree, so what should I do then?
Macapaca has asked to follow appeal process to the end, but then ignore debt collection letters as this LCP seems to be a toothless tiger and they take very few cases to court.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 11:29
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I just told you not to use the words procedural... as this isnt a council ticket
I didnt say not to appeal
I told you how to appeal
Its not a difficult example to follow. You could search for BOGOFF as well.
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