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PCN received from Premier Park, £100 charge for a period of 5 minutes
dingleberry
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 20:22
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Hi there,

My SO has just handed me a PCN he has received from Premier Park as he is the RK of the vehicle in question. This charge if for being in a private car park for 5 minutes. I wondering if you could tell me if this PCN meets the conditions on POFA? I have a niggling feeling that it does and we are quite distressed about this as we are on low income as I am chronically ill and can barely afford to pay for food so certainly cannot afford to pay this. I would like to appeal but am disheartened that we won't have a chance if they have adhered to POFA. I have included a scan of the PCN and have redacted my SO's details for our protection. We also went to visit the car park to look at the signs, I will include the images. As you can see, this car park includes two residents parking spaces, the PCN shows 4 photographs of the vehicle entering and exiting the car park with close ups to the reg, but provides no evidence that the vehicle was parked in a Vets4Pets parking bay. I intended on refusing to provide drivers details and challenging on the basis that they cannot provide evidence that the driver parked in the Vets4Pets bay instead of the residential bays. I can say unequivocally to you guys that the driver would have not parked there intentionally had they seen signage but on inspecting signage I expect that it would be considered clear enough and so I am very concerned about this. Thank you.

Here is a link to the gallery with all the files:
https://postimg.cc/gallery/36v06ci06/

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post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 20:22
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Redivi
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 07:47
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Premier Park puts a lot of effort into its POPLA evidence packs so make sure that you do

It also has a habit of objecting to decisions it doesn't like and, although POPLA says that its decisions are final, has been known to have them over-turned

I don't know if Premier has particularly favourable treatment at POPLA but one assessor rejected an appeal for the inventive reason that a car is not a vehicle (and wasn't subject to the byelaws)
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dingleberry
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 10:58
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 08:47) *
Premier Park puts a lot of effort into its POPLA evidence packs so make sure that you do

It also has a habit of objecting to decisions it doesn't like and, although POPLA says that its decisions are final, has been known to have them over-turned

I don't know if Premier has particularly favourable treatment at POPLA but one assessor rejected an appeal for the inventive reason that a car is not a vehicle (and wasn't subject to the byelaws)


Well, that doesn't fill me with confidence.
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Macapaca
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 11:07
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It was just intended to give you the realistic view of how PP appeals go. It doesn't mean that you will have to pay them and that you won't eventually be successful. They just keep applying pressure until people give up and pay.
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ManxRed
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 11:07
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A judge would probably not share those ridiculous POPLA assessments of the case!


--------------------
Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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dingleberry
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 12:15
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QUOTE (Macapaca @ Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 12:07) *
It was just intended to give you the realistic view of how PP appeals go. It doesn't mean that you will have to pay them and that you won't eventually be successful. They just keep applying pressure until people give up and pay.


Okay, thanks Macapaca, I'm hoping I have enough evidence on my side i.e. Entrance signage is smaller than required by BPA, no attempt to mitigate losses by preventing access, they have not allowed a grace period and that there are two residential parking spaces inside the same car park. I'll include photographs of all of that in the POPLA appeal.
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SchoolRunMum
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 12:26
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Quite a few Premier Park POPLA cases have been lost on here and on MSE but no-one pays them.

Search here or MSE for Premier POPLA lost (obviously never search a parking fine forum including the word 'park!) and you'll find threads to restore your confidence that a daft POPLA decision will mean nowt.

This post has been edited by SchoolRunMum: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 12:27
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dingleberry
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 19:24
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At the car park they are using ANPR cameras, whilst the signage does state they use cameras, it makes no mention of them being ANPR, are they required to state that on the signs?

21.1 You may use ANPR camera technology to manage,
control and enforce parking in private car parks, as long
as you do this in a reasonable, consistent and transparent
manner. Your signs at the car park must tell drivers that
you are using this technology and what you will use the
data captured by ANPR cameras for.

This post has been edited by dingleberry: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 19:30
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Redivi
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 20:01
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The signs must state that they are using cameras to calculate the parking time from entry
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dingleberry
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 20:32
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This is what I have so far for the POPLA appeal, not perfect I know, if there is anything I need to take out or add please let me know. Not really sure how to end it, would like to tie it all up into a neat bow:

"To whom it may concern,

I am writing in order to appeal a Parking Charge Notice that was issued to me as the registered keeper of the vehicle, registration number XXXXXXX. The Parking Charge Notice was issued for this vehicle entering a Vets 4 Pets Car Park on the 11th May 2018, the driver of the vehicle entered the car park at 20:03 on the 11th May and exited at 20:08 on the 11th May, thus being in the car park for a total of 5 minutes. As the keeper I would like to challenge the reason for Premier Park rejecting my initial appeal due to the reason “As you were not a Vets4Pets customer” as an insufficient reason. I wish to challenge the grounds on which Premier Park have issued the PCN as it does not adhere to the British Parking Association guidelines. Premier Park are a member of the BPA and thus are required to provide drivers with a grace period of 10 minutes in order to read signage and either accept or not accept the terms and conditions of parking on the private land. I would like to state that Premier Park have no grounds to issue a PCN as no contract was established with the driver. The driver read the terms and conditions of the car park within the grace period and left, Premier Park attempting to transfer liability to me as the registered keeper under POFA 2012 is invalid as no contract was ever formed with the driver. Under section 13 of the BPA's Approved Operator Scheme Code of Practice 2012 – Version 7, January 2018 it states:

13 Grace periods

13.1 If a driver is parking without your permission, or at locations where parking is not normally permitted they must have the chance to read the terms and conditions before they enter into the ‘parking contract’ with you. If, having had that opportunity, they decide not to park but choose to leave the car park, you must provide them with a reasonable grace period to leave, as they will not be bound by your parking contract.
13.2 If the parking location is one where parking is normally permitted, you must allow the driver a reasonable grace period in addition to the parking event before enforcement action is taken. In such instances the grace period must be a minimum of 10 minutes.

13.2.a Vehicles are not permitted to park under the grace period in spaces designated to specific users for example Blue Badge holders. At all times vehicles must have appropriate and valid permit e.g Blue Badge on display for enforcement officer to inspect.
13.3 You must tell us the specific grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is.
13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.

I would also like to challenge the PCN as signage at the entrance of the car park is inappropriate and does not meet BPA' guidelines, the entrance sign is too small and does not take into account the anticipated speed of the vehicle approaching the car park, the entrance sign contains no Group 1 text and any Group 2 or subsequent text comes no where near meeting the minimum capital height of 60mm for a parking area entered immediately by turning off a 30mph road with no barrier control, therefore the entrance sign is not legible for drivers without needing to look away from the road ahead or entering car park to read further signage. The entrance sign also does not state that “terms and conditions apply” which it is required to. The entrance sign applied by Premier Park invites drivers to read further signage within the car park and therefor a grace period absolutely should be upheld. Under section 18 of the BPA's Approved Operator Scheme Code of Practice 2012 – Version 7, January 2018 it states:

18 Signs

18.1 A driver who uses your private car park with your permission does so under a licence or contract with you. If they park without your permission this will usually be an act of trespass. In all cases, the driver’s use of your land will be governed by your terms and conditions, which the driver should be made aware of from the start. You must use signs to make it easy for them to find out what your terms and conditions are.
18.2 Entrance signs play an important part in establishing a parking contract and deterring trespassers. Therefore, as well as the signs you must have telling drivers about the terms and conditions for parking, you must also have a standard form of entrance sign at the entrance to the parking area. Entrance signs must tell drivers that the car park is managed and that there are terms and conditions they must be aware of. Entrance signs must follow some minimum general principles and be in a standard format. The size of the sign must take into account the expected speed of vehicles approaching the car park, and it is recommended that you follow Department for Transport guidance on this. See Appendix B for an example of an entrance sign and more information about their use. A standard form of entrance sign must be placed at the entrance to the parking area. There may be reasons why this is impractical, for example: • when there is no clearly defined car park entrance • when the car park is very small • at forecourts in front of shops and petrol filling stations • at parking areas where general parking is not permitted
18.3 Specific parking-terms signage tells drivers what your terms and conditions are, including your parking charges. You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site, so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving their vehicle. Keep a record of where all the signs are. Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand. Signs showing your detailed terms and conditions must be at least 450mm x 450mm.
18.4 If you intend to use the keeper liability provisions in Schedule 4 of POFA 2012, your signs must give ’adequate notice’. This includes: • specifying the sum payable for unauthorised parking • adequately bringing the charges to the attention of drivers, and • following any applicable government signage regulations. See paragraphs 2(2), 2(3) and 12 of the Schedule.
18.5 The wording you include on your specific parking terms signage is your decision. However, you should try to use plain and intelligible language in all your signs and information.
18.6 If you provide a telephone line to respond to complaints, challenges and appeals from motorists relating to the terms and conditions of parking they have entered into, these calls must not be charged above the basic rate.
18.7 You should display the BPA’s AOS logos at all sites. This will help the public to see that you are a legitimate operator, and show that the site is run properly.
18.8 Important: you may have to give other information on signs and notices under companies and consumer protection law and other legislation.
18.9 So that disabled motorists can decide whether they want to use the site, there must be at least one sign containing the terms and conditions for parking that can be viewed without needing to leave the vehicle. Ideally this sign must be close to any parking bays set aside for disabled motorists.
18.10 Where there is a change in the terms and conditions that materially affects the motorist then you must make these terms and conditions clear on your signage. Where such changes impose liability where none previously existed then you must consider a transition to allow regular visitors to the site to adjust and familiarise themselves with the changes. Best practice would be the installation of additional/ temporary signage at the entrance and throughout the site making it clear that new terms and conditions apply. This will ensure such that regular visitors who may be familiar with the previous terms become aware of the new ones.

Under Appendix B “Entrance Signs” of the BPA's Approved Operator Scheme Code of Practice 2012 – Version 7, January 2018 it states:

Signs at the entrance to the parking area should clearly show the type of parking; and if, when and how any payment should be made. Ideally the AOS logo should be incorporated to indicate that the parking is managed under a Code of Practice. We consider it to be good practice that the landowner’s name is on the sign, but we understand that in some cases the owner may not want to be mentioned. You may also place your ‘private parking’ banner above your company details and below your terms and conditions. If one of the following standard wordings applies to your parking area you should use it. If not, you may alter the wording to fit the situation. Words in square brackets may be left out. There must be at least one item from Group 1. But no more than three items from Group 1 should appear before, and more prominently than, text from Group 2. You must always mention that terms and conditions apply and say where drivers can find more details – this will usually be on the other notices in the parking area. If there are different payment terms for blue badge holders, you should also show these. The words ‘blue badge holders’ should generally be replaced by the blue badge symbol (exactly as shown in the Traffic Signs Regulations Guidance Document, not a local version).

Group 1

Pay and display [except/free for blue badge holders]
[x minutes’/hour’s/hours’] free parking [for [business name] customers only]
Pay on exit
Pay [on foot/at machine] when leaving
Parking for [business name] customers only Permit holders only

Group 2

Charges apply [after this][after x minutes/hours]
Private land
Terms and conditions apply
See the notice[s] [in the car park] for details

Text size

The capital height for Group 1 text will depend on the approach speed of traffic. Group 2 text should be at least 50% of this size. All other text should be smaller than 50% of the Group 1 text size. However, the name of the car park or parking area, or a brief welcome message (if included), may be larger.


The sign should be placed so that it is readable by drivers without their needing to look away from the road ahead. Any text on the sign not intended to be read from a moving vehicle can be of a much smaller size.

I challenge the PCN being issued on the grounds of unauthorised entry as no mention of entering the car park as being seen as unauthorised entry or trespassing is mentioned on any Premier Park sign. The owners of the car park have made no attempts to mitigate losses by installing barriers or deterrents of any kind at the entrance of the car park. A “P” symbol is utilised on the entrance signage as well as the word “Welcome” and therefore welcomes drivers to use the space as a car park and does not deter against trespassing.

In my initial appeal to Premier Park I challenged that no photographic evidence had been provided to show that the driver of the vehicle had parked in a Vets4Pets bay. The photographic evidence provided were two images of the front and rear of the vehicle in motion with the headlights and taillights on, with two further close ups of the number plate. Within the same car park there are eight Vets4Pets parking bays and two residential bays which are not owned by Vets4Pets. No evidence was provided by Premier Park to counter this. The onus is on Premier Park to provide evidence that the driver parked the vehicle in question in the Vets4Pets parking bays as opposed to the residential bays, there is also no evidence to suggest that if the driver did park the vehicle, as Premier Park insists, that the driver ever left the vehicle and I ask that Premier Park provide this evidence as per Section 20.5a and Section 22.3 of the BPA's Approved Operator Scheme Code of Practice 2012 – Version 7, January 2018:

20.5a When issuing a parking charge notice you may use photographs as evidence that a vehicle was parked in an unauthorised way. The photographs must refer to and confirm the incident which you claim was unauthorised. A date and time stamp should be included on the photograph. All photographs used for evidence should be clear and legible and must not be retouched or digitally altered.

22.3 If the motorist asks for it, you must make available any photographic evidence you have.

Premier Park are using ANPR camera technology to monitor vehicles entering and exiting the car park, whilst they mention use of cameras on signage, they do not mention anywhere about the use of ANPR technology, Section 21.1 of the BPA's Approved Operator Scheme Code of Practice 2012 – Version 7, January 2018:

21.1 You may use ANPR camera technology to manage, control and enforce parking in private car parks, as long as you do this in a reasonable, consistent and transparent manner. Your signs at the car park must tell drivers that you are using this technology and what you will use the data captured by ANPR cameras for.

And to surmise I would like to finally state that charge of £100 is punitive and unreasonable for a period of 5 minutes."

Here is a link to all the photographic evidence I will submit:
https://postimg.cc/gallery/36v06ci06/

Thanks Guys!

This post has been edited by dingleberry: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 20:36
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SchoolRunMum
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 20:50
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I think you will win on grace periods because 5 mins in and out is ridiculous and specifically against the BPA CoP.

I would just as the usual 'no landowner authority' POPLA appeal point that you find in any other PP ANPR POPLA appeal, as a safety net.
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Redivi
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 20:54
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When the time comes, post up Premier's evidence of land-owner authority

Its contracts often contain the clause
When they don't, Premier has a track record of forged names and signatures
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dingleberry
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 21:02
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 21:50) *
I think you will win on grace periods because 5 mins in and out is ridiculous and specifically against the BPA CoP.

I would just as the usual 'no landowner authority' POPLA appeal point that you find in any other PP ANPR POPLA appeal, as a safety net.


Would that be that Premier Park do not own the land they are operating on?


QUOTE (Redivi @ Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 21:54) *
When the time comes, post up Premier's evidence of land-owner authority

Its contracts often contain the clause
When they don't, Premier has a track record of forged names and signatures


Should I request that Premier Park provide POPLA with an unedited copy of the contract with the landowner (not a lessee or managing agent)?
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 27 Jun 2018 - 14:50
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Yes, so must roving standing specific fiscally right to issue in their own name AND take to court, as per cop.
You require them to prove standing with the landowner, full copy of contract it's names left unredacted
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Redivi
post Sun, 8 Jul 2018 - 17:47
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 21:54) *
When the time comes, post up Premier's evidence of land-owner authority

Its contracts often contain the clause
When they don't, Premier has a track record of forged names and signatures

One of my clients has just received a Letter Before Claim following a lost POPLA appeal a couple of years ago

Have just had another look at the witness statement they sent to POPLA

The witness statement on behalf of the landowner has been signed by Premier's own accountant
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Macapaca
post Sun, 8 Jul 2018 - 18:01
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Mmmm. That looks a bit suspicious. I wouldn't trust PP as far as I could throw them.
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 13:51
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Thats not suspiscious. Thats perjury.
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Macapaca
post Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 14:41
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Perjury indeed. They faked a solicitor's letter with me. PP cannot be trusted.
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Redivi
post Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 14:51
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I was at Parkex last year, the parking industry's trade show

Among all the debt collectors and bailiffs, the only stand that gave me such creeps that I had to walk past on the other side of the aisle was Premier's
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dingleberry
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 10:51
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What is the standard amount of time it takes for the operator to provide POPLA with their evidence pack? I submitted the POPLA appeal 12 days ago. It's making me nervous.
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Macapaca
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 11:05
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It can take several weeks so no need to panic. PP put alot of effort into their POPLA appeals and so typically take a bit longer to compile.
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