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PCN received from Premier Park, £100 charge for a period of 5 minutes
dingleberry
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 20:22
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Hi there,

My SO has just handed me a PCN he has received from Premier Park as he is the RK of the vehicle in question. This charge if for being in a private car park for 5 minutes. I wondering if you could tell me if this PCN meets the conditions on POFA? I have a niggling feeling that it does and we are quite distressed about this as we are on low income as I am chronically ill and can barely afford to pay for food so certainly cannot afford to pay this. I would like to appeal but am disheartened that we won't have a chance if they have adhered to POFA. I have included a scan of the PCN and have redacted my SO's details for our protection. We also went to visit the car park to look at the signs, I will include the images. As you can see, this car park includes two residents parking spaces, the PCN shows 4 photographs of the vehicle entering and exiting the car park with close ups to the reg, but provides no evidence that the vehicle was parked in a Vets4Pets parking bay. I intended on refusing to provide drivers details and challenging on the basis that they cannot provide evidence that the driver parked in the Vets4Pets bay instead of the residential bays. I can say unequivocally to you guys that the driver would have not parked there intentionally had they seen signage but on inspecting signage I expect that it would be considered clear enough and so I am very concerned about this. Thank you.

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post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 20:22
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kommando
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 20:33
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There is a grace period so the driver can read and then either accept the contract or leave, also it looks like the driver could not meet the requirements and so the signs are forbidding so no contract could have been formed. So you need to get the IPA guidelines and see what the grace period is as a start, the BPA's is 10 mins.
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dingleberry
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 20:41
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QUOTE (kommando @ Mon, 21 May 2018 - 21:33) *
There is a grace period so the driver can read and then either accept the contract or leave, also it looks like the driver could not meet the requirements and so the signs are forbidding so no contract could have been formed. So you need to get the IPA guidelines and see what the grace period is as a start, the BPA's is 10 mins.


Sorry but can I asked what IPA is short for? Premier Park are a member of BPA so would their 10 minute grace period not be applicable here? Thank you for your response.
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kommando
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 20:52
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I was reading back of PCN where it referred to Independent Appeals Service not POPLA so I assumed IPC, so they are in BPA so use their 10 mins grace period from their code of practice.
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dingleberry
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 21:03
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QUOTE (kommando @ Mon, 21 May 2018 - 21:52) *
I was reading back of PCN where it referred to Independent Appeals Service not POPLA so I assumed IPC, so they are in BPA so use their 10 mins grace period from their code of practice.


Brilliant, thank you. Would it make sense for me to write out my appeal and post it here for review before sending it off to Premier Park? I've read about POPLA on here but not IAS, if our IAS appeal is rejected would I still be able to go through POPLA or is that it? I've tried to do some reading up before hand but am relatively clueless. Thanks again.

This post has been edited by dingleberry: Mon, 21 May 2018 - 21:04
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Dave65
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 21:29
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Yes post up a copy of the appeal here first for checking.
As stated use the grace period read the signs and left.
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Macapaca
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 21:38
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Premier Park use POPLA. They are a member of the BPA so a 10min grace period applies. Entering and leaving within 5 mins is sufficient to argue that no contract with the driver was established. Attempting to transfer liability using Pofa to the RK is invalid as no contract was formed with the driver. In any case do not name the driver!

DO NOT PAY THEM ANYTHING! You will need to appeal but PP will turn it down. They turn them all down so that doesn't count for anything other than the PCN hasn't been cancelled yet.
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dingleberry
post Tue, 22 May 2018 - 12:03
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QUOTE (Dave65 @ Mon, 21 May 2018 - 22:29) *
Yes post up a copy of the appeal here first for checking.
As stated use the grace period read the signs and left.


Okay, here is what I have so far:

Parking Charge Reference Number: XXXXXXX

Dear Premier Park,

I am writing in reference to the Parking Charge Notice issued to me as the keeper of the colour, make model, vehicle registration number XXXXXXX. The Parking Charge Notice is dated 18th May 2018.

I have decided to decline to offer you the details of the driver. As the registered keeper of the above vehicle I deny any liability for this unenforceable charge on the grounds that no contract was established between Premier Park and the driver. As a member of the British Parking Association, you are required to provide a grace period of 10 minutes. As detailed in the Parking Charge Notice the entry time/date being 20:03 11/05/2018 and the exit time/date being 20:08 11/05/2018 totals a period of 5 minutes. Under the BPA Code of Practice 2012 – Version 7, January 2018 it states:

13 Grace periods
1. 13.1 If a driver is parking without your permission, or at locations where parking is not normally permitted they must have the chance to read the terms and conditions before they enter into the ‘parking contract’ with you. If, having had that opportunity, they decide not to park but choose to leave the car park, you must provide them with a reasonable grace period to leave, as they will not be bound by your parking contract.
2. 13.2 If the parking location is one where parking is normally permitted, you must allow the driver a reasonable
grace period in addition to the parking event before enforcement action is taken. In such instances the grace period must be a minimum of 10 minutes.
13.2.a Vehicles are not permitted to park under the grace period in spaces designated to specific users for example Blue Badge holders. At all times vehicles must have appropriate and valid permit e.g Blue Badge on display for enforcement officer to inspect.
3. 13.3 You must tell us the specific grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is.
4. 13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.

Secondly, I challenge that the Parking Charge Notice has been issued on the grounds of unauthorized entry as the owners of the car park have made no steps to mitigate their losses by installing barriers of any kind at the entrance of the car park, they have also installed inappropriate and illegible signage at the entrance of the car park. As you have only provided four images, one of the front of the vehicle and the back of the vehicle whilst it is in motion, with two close ups of the registration number, you have provided no evidence that the vehicle was parked within a Vet4Pet’s parking bay. This is compounded by the fact that within the car park plot, two of the bays are residential and are not owned by Vets4Pets.

Please provide acceptance of the appeal and cancel the charge, or if the appeal is rejected please provide a unique appeal reference number for the Independent Appeals Service.

Regards,

Registered Keeper

This post has been edited by dingleberry: Tue, 22 May 2018 - 12:03
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 22 May 2018 - 12:11
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Appeals service...where, if they cancel the charge on the grounds I have laid out, I reserve the right to invoic you for my time spent on the POPLA appeal that you would have unecessarioly put me through. In short, either cancel the charge, or be charged £30 by POPLA to be told the same, and expect my bill for costs at £19 per hour to follow

Only put the last in if you are feeling ballsy wink.gif
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dingleberry
post Tue, 22 May 2018 - 12:17
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 22 May 2018 - 13:11) *
Appeals service...where, if they cancel the charge on the grounds I have laid out, I reserve the right to invoic you for my time spent on the POPLA appeal that you would have unecessarioly put me through. In short, either cancel the charge, or be charged £30 by POPLA to be told the same, and expect my bill for costs at £19 per hour to follow

Only put the last in if you are feeling ballsy wink.gif


Ahaha, it's tempting but I don't want to push my luck laugh.gif
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dingleberry
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 13:29
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Hi Guys,

So we got an email response from Premier Park that completely ignored all the points that I raised, this is their response:

We write to acknowledge receipt of your recent online appeal, on behalf of the driver, appealing against the issuing of a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) to the vehicle.
We note your comments and must refer you to the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012, Schedule 4 - Recovery of unpaid Parking Charges. This is available to view online at:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4
We must therefore request that the details of the driver of the vehicle at the time of the contravention are supplied; this must include their full name and serviceable UK postal address. If you are unwilling or unable to provide these details the registered keeper of this vehicle will remain liable for this PCN. This information should be provided by 22nd June 2018. Please note, Premier Park Limited will not reply to any correspondence until after the above date, if the requested information is not provided.



If we do not receive this information by the date given, the registered keeper of the vehicle at the date of event will be held liable.
If you would like to view our photographic evidence, please visit www.pcnpayments.com
Please respond by return or by filling in the Transfer of Liability form on the reverse of the PCN and posting it to Premier Park, PO Box 624, Exeter, EX1 9JG.

Yours Sincerely,
The Appeals Team
Premier Park Ltd

How is the best way to respond to this? Thanks.

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ManxRed
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 13:36
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Don't respond at all. You've made your appeal points, and they've chosen to ignore that and pester you for the driver's name.

Wait for their next response. They have 35 days from when you submitted your appeal.


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Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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dingleberry
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 13:59
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QUOTE (ManxRed @ Thu, 24 May 2018 - 14:36) *
Don't respond at all. You've made your appeal points, and they've chosen to ignore that and pester you for the driver's name.

Wait for their next response. They have 35 days from when you submitted your appeal.



I worry that not responding wouldn't be a good idea but I don't know really, if I don't get a response in 35 days can the charge be considered cancelled?
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ostell
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 14:04
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Yes, the BPA Code of Practise gives them 35 days to respond. It can then be assumed that the appeal was successful.

Why respond? you've already sent in your appeal and they are playing silly b**gers,
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dingleberry
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 14:12
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QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 24 May 2018 - 15:04) *
Yes, the BPA Code of Practise gives them 35 days to respond. It can then be assumed that the appeal was successful.

Why respond? you've already sent in your appeal and they are playing silly b**gers,


Okay, thanks guys, I'll take your word for it happy.gif
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Macapaca
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 14:13
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No need to respond to that. If you do it might be tead by them that you are worried and might pay up with a little more pressure. Let them show their hand.
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dingleberry
post Mon, 25 Jun 2018 - 18:45
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QUOTE (kommando @ Mon, 21 May 2018 - 21:52) *
I was reading back of PCN where it referred to Independent Appeals Service not POPLA so I assumed IPC, so they are in BPA so use their 10 mins grace period from their code of practice.



Okay, so we got the email response from Premier Park today. They have declined the appeal, which seems mad to me because surely they will just end up paying POPLA to be told that they have to honour the grace period? In terms of the POPLA appeal, would a slight rewrite of my original appeal to Premier Park be satisfactory? Considering the main point of contention is the grace period and I shouldn't really need to argue any other point too much surely? Here's their response:

"PCN REFERENCE NUMBER: XXXXXXX
DATE OF PARKING EVENT: 11th May 2018
DATE OF THIS NOTICE: 25th June 2018

POPLA CODE: XXXXXXXXXX
TOTAL AMOUNT DUE: £60.00
PAYMENT DUE BY: 9th July 2018

Dear Mr XXXX,



Thank you for your appeal, on behalf of the driver, against the above Parking Charge Notice (PCN). We have carefully considered your appeal, however on this occasion the appeal has been rejected for the following reason;



As you were not a Vets4Pets customer.



You have now reached the end of our internal appeals procedure and therefore you now have two options;



You can pay the total amount due as shown above via the following payment options;

Call us on: 01302 513232
Pay online: www.pcnpayments.com
Send a postal order: Premier Park Ltd, PO Box 624, Exeter, EX1 9JG


You can appeal to an Independent Appeals Service, POPLA (Parking on Private Land Appeals) using the POPLA reference code provided above. Please note, should you decide to appeal to POPLA and your appeal is subsequently rejected or you withdraw your appeal, the option to pay a discounted amount will no longer be available and the full amount of the PCN will become due.



If you decide to appeal to POPLA, you will need to visit their website, www.popla.co.uk where further details of how to appeal (either online or by downloading the relevant forms) can be found. If you are unable to access their website, please call us for further information on how to obtain the forms. Please ensure your POPLA Reference Number, as noted above, is quoted on all correspondence to POPLA. You have 28 days from the date of this letter to submit an appeal to POPLA. If you appeal to POPLA we will suspend recovery activity on the PCN and the charge will not increase until the appeal has been determined.



By law we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman Services (www.ombudsman-services. org/) provides an alternative dispute resolution service that would be competent to deal with your appeal. However, we have not chosen to participate in their alternative dispute resolution service. As such should you wish to appeal then you must do so to POPLA, as explained above.



If you do not make payment or submit an appeal to POPLA within the relevant timeframe, the outstanding PCN may be passed to our appointed debt collection agency for further action. All costs associated with this process will be added to the amount outstanding.



IMPORTANT INFORMATION

Unless any additional relevant information or facts are provided, Premier Park Ltd considers this to be their final decision regarding this appeal.

Please note that all payments are subject to a 50p administration charge."
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Jlc
post Mon, 25 Jun 2018 - 19:46
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QUOTE (dingleberry @ Mon, 25 Jun 2018 - 19:45) *
...the appeal has been rejected for the following reason;

As you were not a Vets4Pets customer.

What's that got to do with the price of fish?

BPA 13.1 applies, the driver decided not to accept the contract on offer and left.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 - 19:47


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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dingleberry
post Mon, 25 Jun 2018 - 19:57
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 25 Jun 2018 - 20:46) *
QUOTE (dingleberry @ Mon, 25 Jun 2018 - 19:45) *
...the appeal has been rejected for the following reason;

As you were not a Vets4Pets customer.

What's that got to do with the price of fish?

BPA 13.1 applies, the driver decided not to accept the contract on offer and left.


Haha, exactly what I thought, okay, I'll get to writing the POPLA appeal. So absurd, lol.
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Macapaca
post Mon, 25 Jun 2018 - 21:52
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Most things that Premier Park is absurd so don't read much into their response. They always reject appeals because it costs them very little and it might result in some people paying. Stick to your guns at Popla who will probably reject it as well.
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