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Multiple PCNs for parking in flat car park
HenryHippo
post Sun, 2 Jul 2017 - 19:58
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At the end of 2016 the block of flats I live in introduced parking permits and PCNs.

I didn't actually get a permit through the post, but most people did in the block. Consequently the car I own which was parked in the car park had 7 PCNs within a 4 week period and the total invoice is £1,160

I ignored the letters that came in the post, but now they have sent me the attached letters for a not insubstantial amount

Does the fact that I didn't get a permit through the post before they enforced the tickets count as a defence? Eventually they sent me one by recorded delivery at which point I had had several tickets.

Quite miffed to be PCNd in my own home.








This post has been edited by HenryHippo: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 - 19:59
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post Sun, 2 Jul 2017 - 19:58
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ostell
post Thu, 3 Aug 2017 - 21:24
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The grantor is the owner of the land that leased portions of the property to others and was the other signatory to the lease document. The property management company are nothing in this.

Is there a map attached to the lease which has red lined squares, one for your flat the other for tha parking space?
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HenryHippo
post Thu, 3 Aug 2017 - 21:31
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Here is a link to my lease https://www.dropbox.com/s/dl1nmbdyj2sfpg9/E...0Lease.pdf?dl=0

I interpet it as I don't have a specific allocated space, but the right to park anywhere in the general parking area

This would be supported by the fact that the permits we were given allow you to park anywhere, no set spaces
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ostell
post Thu, 3 Aug 2017 - 21:45
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Come on Henry !!! Bottom of page 1, heading:Demised premises, heading: Allocated parking space
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cabbyman
post Fri, 4 Aug 2017 - 08:34
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Fourth schedule, para 6 refers to allocated parking as well.


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hexaflexagon
post Fri, 4 Aug 2017 - 09:39
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..but as devil's advocate here, can we have a reality check?

Given the definition of 'Estate Regulations' in the lease, isn't paragraph 19 on page 23 a real and substantial problem if the Manager has indicated that permits must be used?

This post has been edited by hexaflexagon: Fri, 4 Aug 2017 - 09:40
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ostell
post Fri, 4 Aug 2017 - 10:20
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But changing things to a worse position is a derogation of grant. The original lease did not require a permit nor charge if one was not displayed.
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hexaflexagon
post Fri, 4 Aug 2017 - 11:23
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QUOTE (ostell @ Fri, 4 Aug 2017 - 11:20) *
But changing things to a worse position is a derogation of grant. The original lease did not require a permit nor charge if one was not displayed.


Still in DA mode

But isn't a moot point? If the ability to vary the lease conditions is enshrined in the original lease then might it not be argued that requiring a permit is merely an extension of that right? The right to park isn't being taken away. The lease doesn't define 'worse position' but even if it were it presumably could be argued that making it less likely that the allocated space would be taken by someone not entitled to park therein is making the situation better.

Just offering a view you understand. I suppose the crucial point is if there are two conflicting clauses in a lease which one should take precedence? I'm not at the moment convinced that ultimately a court would find a conflict, but I'll be interested to hear other arguments.

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ostell
post Fri, 4 Aug 2017 - 11:49
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I appreciate your point, honest, but having to pay a charge for forgetting to display a permit is certainly not to the benefit or advantage of leaseholders.
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 4 Aug 2017 - 15:19
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...and isn't reasonable
Plus they can't bind you to contracting with a third party which is what the claim is.
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Lynnzer
post Fri, 4 Aug 2017 - 15:25
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Another typical KERCHING case.
Damned greed, lies and obnoxious behavior from PPC's doing residential bullying

HH, if you haven't already, take a look at the links from my signature and see how your case is built for a good counterclaim or claim for damages for breach of the Data Protection Act.



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hexaflexagon
post Fri, 4 Aug 2017 - 16:12
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 4 Aug 2017 - 16:19) *
...and isn't reasonable
Plus they can't bind you to contracting with a third party which is what the claim is.


Given that the lease allows the leaseholder to make variations to the lease by virtue of the lease saying exactly that, then we must assume that there are certain things the leaseholder is permitted to do. One of which is to appoint an agent to manage parking matters.

Does this not boil down to whether the PPC is acting as an agent of the Manager/Leaseholder or in their own right?
If the PPC is acting as an agent then arguably this is not so much a contractual matter as a charge for breaching what the leaseholder sees (rightly or wrongly) as a breach of the lease and their newly required condition to display a permit.
i.e. we (the PPC) are instructed by our principal - (your leaseholder/managing agent) to issue a charge for breaching a (newly required) condition to display a permit in your allocated space.

If the arrangement is that the Leaseholder has entered a contract with the PPC to manage the parking situation as the PPC sees fit, and that the leaseholder has not passed on any right of action in connection with the lease then presumably that is an entirely different contractual matter - (leaving aside for a moment whether the signage is of a forbidding nature). In that situation presumably we could agree that it would be perfectly reasonable for the PPC to issue PCNs to people who are not authorised to park, but not to those who are?

Again I'm not claiming my view is correct but there may be circumstances where this is not as black & white as perhaps always perceived.


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cabbyman
post Fri, 4 Aug 2017 - 17:43
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This lease appears to have been executed as a deed. I can't find authority for the statement, but I was always of the impression that a contract made by deed can only be varied by deed.

Any variation of a contract can only be at a minimum 'level of the original contract. ie, A verbal contract can be varied verbally; a written contract can be varied in writing but not verbally, and a contract by deed can only be varied by deed, not verbally or a simple written variation.

Therefore, a simple letter 'you must display a permit' is not sufficient.

Am I correct?

This post has been edited by cabbyman: Fri, 4 Aug 2017 - 17:44


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hexaflexagon
post Fri, 4 Aug 2017 - 20:04
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Fri, 4 Aug 2017 - 18:43) *
This lease appears to have been executed as a deed. I can't find authority for the statement, but I was always of the impression that a contract made by deed can only be varied by deed.

Any variation of a contract can only be at a minimum 'level of the original contract. ie, A verbal contract can be varied verbally; a written contract can be varied in writing but not verbally, and a contract by deed can only be varied by deed, not verbally or a simple written variation.

Therefore, a simple letter 'you must display a permit' is not sufficient.

Am I correct?


IANAL but I believe a written contract can be varied orally unless the contract specifically says otherwise and provided there is at least some nominal consideration. I am not sure whether a variation of a contract made by deed needs to be written but that would seem to have a certain logic.
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HenryHippo
post Sat, 5 Aug 2017 - 12:16
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QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Fri, 4 Aug 2017 - 16:25) *
Another typical KERCHING case.
Damned greed, lies and obnoxious behavior from PPC's doing residential bullying

HH, if you haven't already, take a look at the links from my signature and see how your case is built for a good counterclaim or claim for damages for breach of the Data Protection Act.


Thanks Everyone

You think the lease is termed in my favour? I don't find it very clear as the lease refers to an allocated parking space (implying a specific bay) but there isn't one outlined in there and there wasn't when i moved in (before the car park moved to a permit situation)
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ostell
post Sat, 5 Aug 2017 - 12:19
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The introduction of a permit scheme AFTER you moved in will stand you in good stead as it could not possibly be in the lease that was signed.
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hexaflexagon
post Sat, 5 Aug 2017 - 13:13
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 5 Aug 2017 - 13:19) *
The introduction of a permit scheme AFTER you moved in will stand you in good stead as it could not possibly be in the lease that was signed.


But by definition no variation that the leaseholder wanted to make would be in the original lease. That's presumably why the leaseholder includes a clause that makes variations possible - presumably unilaterally.
Are you suggesting that the leaseholder could not make any change?

I did note that the lease made reference to an allocated bay, said to be marked on the plan, but I couldn't see anything so marked in the lease the OP uploaded. That should be regularised without delay to avoid any further problems and the Leaseholder should be asked to issue a suitably marked plan for the avoidance of doubt.
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HenryHippo
post Sun, 6 Aug 2017 - 20:02
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QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Fri, 4 Aug 2017 - 16:25) *
Another typical KERCHING case.
Damned greed, lies and obnoxious behavior from PPC's doing residential bullying

HH, if you haven't already, take a look at the links from my signature and see how your case is built for a good counterclaim or claim for damages for breach of the Data Protection Act.



thanks for the links. I notice that they are templates for letters and not templates to respond to a money claim with a defence

Does such a template exist on here already?
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cabbyman
post Sun, 6 Aug 2017 - 20:07
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No. You need to gather all the information together and write your own defence. You need to understand it which you won't do by copying and pasting a template.


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HenryHippo
post Sun, 6 Aug 2017 - 20:33
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Sun, 6 Aug 2017 - 21:07) *
No. You need to gather all the information together and write your own defence. You need to understand it which you won't do by copying and pasting a template.


OK. This is what I have put together so far. I am aware that it is far from complete. And the counter claim needs to be in a separate letter, so I have left it out for now. Correct?

I have mentioned: the car was under 3 tonnes, my lease allows me to park in the allocated area, any change to my lease requires me to sign a contract which I haven't and that any difference is tortious interference


Statement of Defense
1. I am the defendant in this matter.

2. It is admitted that the Defendant is the registered keeper of the vehicle in question. However, the Defendant denies that he is liable to the Claimant either as alleged in the Particulars of Claim or at all. Each and every allegation in the Particulars of Claim is denied.

3. The Claimant has no cause of action against the Defendant on the following grounds:

4. As the owner of No XX at the address, my lease applies no restrictions on the parking facilities for any motor vehicle of mine, providing that it does not exceed three tonnes in laden weight

5. The motor vehicle did not exceed three tonnes in laden weight

6. My lease allows me to park anywhere in the allocated area

7. The motor vehicle was in the allocated area

8. The lease does not mention that a permit needs to be shown. The only way that this could be legally binding was if I, the leaseholder signed a further contract allowing my lease to be over ruled

9. I have signed no such further contract

10. UKPC do not have the right to offer contractual terms towards myself as I already have the right to use all of the spaces in the allocated area

11. I have lived in the property since Febuary 2016 and neither I, or any other occupant of the estate has been allocated a specific parking bay, either before or after UKPC started to patrol the estate in November 2016

12. The attempt to force a permit situation upon the Defendant is Tortious Interference

13. I draw attention to the case of Jopson v Homeguard , case 2906J in Oxford County Court where the appeal heard by his honour Judge Harris QC. This was an appeal against a previous hearing which was awarded in favour of Homeguard, in similar circumstances as those addressed in my dispute with UKPC. The Judge allowed the appeal in favour of Mrs Jopson.

14. I also draw attention to PACE v Mr (N Redacted), case C6GF14F0 in Croydon county court where the case was heard by District Judge Coonan. In summing up he stated " I have before me a tenancy agreement which gives Mr [N. redacted] the right to park on the estate and it does not say “on condition that you display a permit”. It does not say that, so he has that right. What UKPC is seeking to do is, unilaterally outside the contract, restrict that right to only when a permit is displayed. Pace Recovery cannot do that."
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ostell
post Sun, 6 Aug 2017 - 20:48
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Get in, when you mention the lease, that your lease is superior to any alleged contract they believe they have. They are are 3rd party strangers to your lost and cannot offer you a contract to part when you already have that right.
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