Motorcycle NIP in NYP B6451 Possible Incorrect Vehicle Identified Options

[ian505050]

I have been issued with a NIP as attached ending in 520

It states I was doing 69mph in a 60mph zone at 19:25 on 12.9.18 on my motorcycle.

I received the NIP in the post 3 days later on 15.9.18.

The NIP was issued by North Yorkshire Police and has the correct Registration but they have not provided any evidence photos (which is common practice)

The Location of the offence is detailed as B6451 Long Stoop Farm, South of A59 Junction. I know this route extremely well as I have travelled this route over the past few years hundreds of times. Google 'long stoop harrogate HG3 1SN' to find the location of the farm close to the B6451

On the date of the alleged offence I was following another random motorcycle at the speed limit along some twisty roads past The Sun Inn (Near Harrogate) and heading north along the B6451.

As you are travelling along the B6451 North Bound you approach a section of road approximately 0.8 km long that is very straight but has a slight hidden dip and a lay-by where a speed camera van parks (hides) facing the traffic approaching the A59 Junction. I am very aware of this speed camera van location as about 6 months ago I received a speeding ticket from the van parked in this location.

As I approached the 0.8km section of road where my bike is visible to the speed camera van I slowed down to perhaps 50mph just to be super safe. At that point I noticed that the random motorcycle in front of me did not slow down and in-fact accelerated as we started the straight where the speed camera van was located. I felt sorry for the guy as he had not noticed the speed camera van in the distance and he accelerated to perhaps 70 to 80 mph as he approached the camera van. It seems he panic braked about 300m before the camera van which was probably too late an he would more than likely receive a ticket.

I am without doubt that I did not travel at more than 50mph for the full section of of the road and clearly nowhere near 69mph (that's quite a big difference)

So....... Fast forward 3 days later and I was shocked to receive a NIP from that camera van at that very location! After spending many hours scratching my head I can only assume that the camera van must have taken a speed reading and associated front on photo from the motorcycle in front of me and then as we passed the camera van must have taken a photo of the rear of my motorcycle in error.

Both bikes as far as I can tell were a similar type and similar colour-ish. It should be noted that several lorries passed across the line of sight of the speed camera operator as both bikes approached the camera van. Hopefully the front facing photograph the police hold with the speed reading is not of my vehicle but as they make it difficult to view the photos before going to court I am unsure what to do.

I have 28 Days to respond to the NIP so any advice in the meantime would be greatly appreciated.

See Attached NIP and image of the location of the alleged offence from google maps




Location of alleged offence

B6451
Harrogate HG3 1SD
53.996217, -1.691582

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

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[peterguk]

Right now you're simply being asked to name the driver/rider of the vehicle/motorcycle with the VRN stated, at the time and location stated.

That would seem to be you?

[AntonyMMM]

Ask them for a photo "to help identify the rider" ....even thought they say otherwise, they will usually provide one, or direct you to a website to view it. Do not mention the work "evidence" in your request.

Asking does not stop the clock on the 28 days.

This post has been edited by AntonyMMM: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 15:24

[The Rookie]

Providing photos with NIPs is far from common practice, not sure where you got that information from but it’s wrong.

[ian505050]

Providing photos with NIPs is far from common practice, not sure where you got that information from but it’s wrong.

West Yorkshire provide photos online North Yorkshire avoid giving you photos at all cost. I got photos from North Yorkshire by asking the traffic centre politely and advising that I wanted the info due to GDPR.

This post has been edited by ian505050: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 20:30

[Churchmouse]

As I approached the 0.8km section of road where my bike is visible to the speed camera van I slowed down to perhaps 50mph just to be super safe. At that point I noticed that the random motorcycle in front of me did not slow down and in-fact accelerated as we started the straight where the speed camera van was located. I felt sorry for the guy as he had not noticed the speed camera van in the distance and he accelerated to perhaps 70 to 80 mph as he approached the camera van. It seems he panic braked about 300m before the camera van which was probably too late an he would more than likely receive a ticket.

I am without doubt that I did not travel at more than 50mph for the full section of of the road and clearly nowhere near 69mph (that's quite a big difference)

The camera operator could have sighted you riding at the "same speed" as the other bike, targeted the other bike at 69mph and then recorded your VRM as you passed. Unfortunately, they won't provide the evidence to you prior to a not guilty plea, but if the photos "to help identify the rider" don't show your bike at speed, that could be a clue as to what evidence they actually have.

Again unfortunately, the deck is intentionally stacked against defendants in speeding cases, so you would be risking quite a lot in terms of points and fines if you were to forgo the fixed penalty that will likely be offered and required the police to prove their case in court. GPS-enabled helmet camera next time, eh?

--Churchmouse

[The Rookie]

Providing photos with NIPs is far from common practice, not sure where you got that information from but it’s wrong.

West Yorkshire provide photos online North Yorkshire avoid giving you photos at all cost. I got photos from North Yorkshire by asking the traffic centre politely and advising that I wanted the info due to GDPR.

They could have stuck two fingers up to your GDPR claim......that has no effect at all.

[ian505050]

I decided the call the North Yorkshire Police traffic Bureau to request further details as the info available on the NIP is limited.

The Police confirmed the location and direction of the speed camera van was as per my drawing.

They speed camera van photo shows the front of the motorcycle travelling at 69 mph in the 60 zone.

They confirmed there were 2 motorcycles in the photo

They confirmed the lead motorcycle was the offending vehicle that was maybe 200m in front of the other motorcycle ( i know i was the second motorcycle unless another motorcycle was behind me, which i very much doubt). Due to telescopic lens and the angle of the speed camera looking down the road both motorcycle look a lot closer than they are.

They asked me to provide an emailed photo of my motorcycle clothing and the front of the motorcycle to trafficbureau@northyorkshire.pnn.police.uk. Is there any reason why i should or should not do this?

They asked me not to return the signed NIP at this stage until they had received my photos and responded (hopefully with an email saying sorry we screwed up).

What are peoples thoughts on this?

Surely this can be the 6th alleged offence in a row this year that has been incorrectly attributed to me? I spent all day Sunday very distressed about this and many hours on the computer trying to understand what mistake it seemed the police could have made yet again.

Regards

[peterguk]

You are questioning whether it is your motorcycle they have photographed. They have asked you to confirm with photos.
I see nothing suspicious so far.

[ian505050]

You are questioning whether it is your motorcycle they have photographed. They have asked you to confirm with photos.
I see nothing suspicious so far.

yes i agree but i will leave it 24 hours to see if any other people that view this forum have any other opinions. I have huge trust issues with Police in the UK after the amount of issues due to incompetence and questionable policies.

[nosferatu1001]

I see no reason not to respond.

Did you take notes of the call, in case they delay past 28 days?

[ian505050]

I see no reason not to respond.

Did you take notes of the call, in case they delay past 28 days?

I have the time and date of the phone call but not the operator name. I wish i recorded the phone call now.

Fingers crossed they just admit the mistake and they don't start playing funny buggers.

[peterguk]

Fingers crossed they just admit the mistake and they don't start playing funny buggers.

If it's your VRN on the bike then it's either your bike or a clone.

[Colin_S]

Fingers crossed they just admit the mistake and they don't start playing funny buggers.

If it's your VRN on the bike then it's either your bike or a clone.

I think the OP's issue is that, yes it's his bike in the photo but not his bike that was speeding.

What we don't know is whether the Police have reviewed the evidence and realised that the second bike was not targetted and so they have no evidence of it speeding other than a visual suspicion by the operator.

[ian505050]

Fingers crossed they just admit the mistake and they don't start playing funny buggers.

If it's your VRN on the bike then it's either your bike or a clone.

I think you may have mis-understood the situation above i tried to describe.

When the camera officer has taken taken a photo and speed reading of the offending bike from the front it seems it has managed to actually drive past him without him noticing. The very next vehicle going past was me a few seconds later and he has taken a photograph of my registration amusing it was the one he shot several seconds earlier.

I have the feeling that guy in front due to pure fluke has driven past the officer and a lorry has blocked the view of the rear of his bike making the officer unable to see that he has driven past. I think the guy in front of me must have accidentally found a flaw in the system when detecting bikes. If it had been cars in the same situation this would probably never have happened as the reading would have been taken from the front of the car as it was approaching the camera van.

The process for recording a motorcycles speed and recording its registration is not fool proof as there are several seconds between recording the speed from the front of the vehicle until the vehicle has passed. In fact if you approached a speed camera van on your motorcycle and are almost certain you were speeding you legally can turn left or right (if options are available) and hope your registration has not been seen, It would be impossible for the police to prove that was not your intended direction. You will find that most camera vans find long stretches of roads with no junctions where it would be possible to fool the camera van. A handful of motorcycles riders have been known to stop along side the camera van, cover the plate and continue on their way...... should you get caught doing this i believe your risk prison time due to perverting the course of justice.... so not really worth it.

[ian505050]

Fingers crossed they just admit the mistake and they don't start playing funny buggers.

If it's your VRN on the bike then it's either your bike or a clone.

I think the OP's issue is that, yes it's his bike in the photo but not his bike that was speeding.

What we don't know is whether the Police have reviewed the evidence and realised that the second bike was not targetted and so they have no evidence of it speeding other than a visual suspicion by the operator.

fortunately the visual suspicion only of the second bike by the operator is highly unlikely as i has only going 50mph and when i approached the camera van probably dropped to 40 mph. Also the time stamps on the photo of my registration and the time stamp on the front on photo of the offending bike would probably result in and average speed of maybe only 25mph as a rough estimate. Speed = Distance over time etc... he was quite a few second in front.

[Jlc]

Average speeds don't come into play. The reading is virtually instantaneous.

[ian505050]

Average speeds don't come into play. The reading is virtually instantaneous.

Yes the instantaneous reading is of the motorcycle in front of me. They don't have an instantaneous reading of my motorcycle behind. My motorcycle is simply in the back ground in the photo of the offending motorcycle.

The evidence they have on my motorcycle is:-

A video of me driving past at 50mph of less
A Photo of the front of my motorcycle but without the instantaneous speed recorded
A Photo of the rear of my bike with my number plate showing but again without an instantaneous speed recorded.

All they have to work on is average speed as its seems they either failed to record my instantaneous speed as i watch approaching probably because they had just caught the guy in front of me speeding.

[666]

Average speeds don't come into play. The reading is virtually instantaneous.

Yes the instantaneous reading is of the motorcycle in front of me. They don't have an instantaneous reading of my motorcycle behind. My motorcycle is simply in the back ground in the photo of the offending motorcycle.

The evidence they have on my motorcycle is:-

A video of me driving past at 50mph of less
A Photo of the front of my motorcycle but without the instantaneous speed recorded
A Photo of the rear of my bike with my number plate showing but again without an instantaneous speed recorded.

All they have to work on is average speed as its seems they either failed to record my instantaneous speed as i watch approaching probably because they had just caught the guy in front of me speeding.

Why would they want an average speed? It's not the second bike they're after.

You have confirmation (your post #8) that it is the rider of the leading vehicle who has committed the offence. Your issue is one of mistaken identity, not of your speed. As advised above, send them some photos.

[ian505050]

Average speeds don't come into play. The reading is virtually instantaneous.

Yes the instantaneous reading is of the motorcycle in front of me. They don't have an instantaneous reading of my motorcycle behind. My motorcycle is simply in the back ground in the photo of the offending motorcycle.

The evidence they have on my motorcycle is:-

A video of me driving past at 50mph of less
A Photo of the front of my motorcycle but without the instantaneous speed recorded
A Photo of the rear of my bike with my number plate showing but again without an instantaneous speed recorded.

All they have to work on is average speed as its seems they either failed to record my instantaneous speed as i watch approaching probably because they had just caught the guy in front of me speeding.

Why would they want an average speed? It's not the second bike they're after.

You have confirmation (your post #8) that it is the rider of the leading vehicle who has committed the offence. Your issue is one of mistaken identity, not of your speed. As advised above, send them some photos.

I was trying to state that they don't have an instantaneous speed of my bike so the only way that they could calculate my speed would be an average speed using 2 different photos of my bike in 2 different location... before the van... and after the van. Even if they went to this effort they would find i was driving very slow.