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PCN havering
justadisplayname
post Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 08:36
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Got this PCN only noticed the permit holders only sign on entry to the road when I saw I got a fine. Otherwise, where I parked had no lines, bays or sign posts.

Any luck or pay up ?

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post Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 08:36
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Incandescent
post Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 08:55
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Unfortunately, GSV is only up to 2019 for the road, so you really need to do some leg-work and take and post photos of the signs, as they are not present on GSV. This must be a fairly recent scheme. Resident parking zones like this are the invention of the Devil, (aka UK government !), but are legal. No lines or signs are needed, only signs at the entrances to the zone. It is however, recommended that repeater signs in the zone are erected too. Are there any repeater signs in this zone, and how large is it ? Lack of repeaters in large zones is a possible winner at London Tribunals, but you lose the discount option.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 09:37
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 09:55) *
Unfortunately, GSV is only up to 2019 for the road, so you really need to do some leg-work and take and post photos of the signs, as they are not present on GSV. This must be a fairly recent scheme. Resident parking zones like this are the invention of the Devil, (aka UK government !), but are legal. No lines or signs are needed, only signs at the entrances to the zone. It is however, recommended that repeater signs in the zone are erected too. Are there any repeater signs in this zone, and how large is it ? Lack of repeaters in large zones is a possible winner at London Tribunals, but you lose the discount option.


It is also arguable that the wrong contravention is used it is a permit zone not a residential zone so code should be 16 the zone signs are placed in an offset way to accommodate some P&D bays and that is not allowed

post the back of the PCN and council photos

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5661722,0...6384!8i8192


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cp8759
post Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 09:40
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Council photos, I have added the red arrow on the second photo:









I suspect the sign in the last photo is the sign we can see the back of in the second photo where I have added the red arrow.

Another angle is that code 12, especially in this context, could be invalid, see Andrew David Rush v London Borough of Southwark (2120562288, 05 January 2013) http://bit.ly/2KqN0lk and Natalie van Dijk v London Borough of Islington (2150275729, 23 September 2015) http://bit.ly/2ZKOaNX

Code 12 appears to be the wrong code anyway, really it should have been 16 - Parked in a permit space or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit where required, as none of the code 12 suffix wording combinations describe the alleged wrongdoing except maybe code 4 - virtual permit, but the fact that that's at best a guess illustrates the point that the PCN is inadequate.


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stamfordman
post Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 09:41
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Romford permit parking area. I can see at least one repeater.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.565984,0....6384!8i8192

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justadisplayname
post Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 10:07
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I have taken these pictures. Of the sign (only one sign on the left none on the right), where I was parked, and opposite side of the road where there was a pay and display.

Let me know if you need anything else,

Also what would be a suitable letter to write and appeal.

Cheers

https://ibb.co/tYDBXHf
https://ibb.co/dDCSHbs
https://ibb.co/YLRMhyf
https://ibb.co/31kSmSF

QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 09:55) *
Unfortunately, GSV is only up to 2019 for the road, so you really need to do some leg-work and take and post photos of the signs, as they are not present on GSV. This must be a fairly recent scheme. Resident parking zones like this are the invention of the Devil, (aka UK government !), but are legal. No lines or signs are needed, only signs at the entrances to the zone. It is however, recommended that repeater signs in the zone are erected too. Are there any repeater signs in this zone, and how large is it ? Lack of repeaters in large zones is a possible winner at London Tribunals, but you lose the discount option.



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 10:37) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 09:55) *
Unfortunately, GSV is only up to 2019 for the road, so you really need to do some leg-work and take and post photos of the signs, as they are not present on GSV. This must be a fairly recent scheme. Resident parking zones like this are the invention of the Devil, (aka UK government !), but are legal. No lines or signs are needed, only signs at the entrances to the zone. It is however, recommended that repeater signs in the zone are erected too. Are there any repeater signs in this zone, and how large is it ? Lack of repeaters in large zones is a possible winner at London Tribunals, but you lose the discount option.


It is also arguable that the wrong contravention is used it is a permit zone not a residential zone so code should be 16 the zone signs are placed in an offset way to accommodate some P&D bays and that is not allowed

post the back of the PCN and council photos

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5661722,0...6384!8i8192



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 10:40) *
Council photos, I have added the red arrow on the second photo:









I suspect the sign in the last photo is the sign we can see the back of in the second photo where I have added the red arrow.

Another angle is that code 12, especially in this context, could be invalid, see Andrew David Rush v London Borough of Southwark (2120562288, 05 January 2013) http://bit.ly/2KqN0lk and Natalie van Dijk v London Borough of Islington (2150275729, 23 September 2015) http://bit.ly/2ZKOaNX

Code 12 appears to be the wrong code anyway, really it should have been 16 - Parked in a permit space or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit where required, as none of the code 12 suffix wording combinations describe the alleged wrongdoing except maybe code 4 - virtual permit, but the fact that that's at best a guess illustrates the point that the PCN is inadequate.



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 10:41) *
Romford permit parking area. I can see at least one repeater.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.565984,0....6384!8i8192


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cp8759
post Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 11:49
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Please don't block-quote when replying to posts.

No idea why you tried hiding the number plate as you've left it on the PCN. Anyway, are you saying that this photo shows where your car was parked when you got the PCN?



If so, it means you were parked right next to a fairly self-explanatory sign that you should not have missed, so I'm tempted to say you should pay the discount. My concern is that an adjudicator would overlook any technical arguments and simply throw the book at you.


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justadisplayname
post Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 12:07
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Not really bothered about hiding it I just see other people do it. I guess I’ll wait for other responses and make my decision accordingly

That was the only sign once I entered the road. Only noticed it after I got the pcn. Didn’t drive further down to see repeat signs
Cheers.

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 12:49) *
Please don't block-quote when replying to posts.

No idea why you tried hiding the number plate as you've left it on the PCN. Anyway, are you saying that this photo shows where your car was parked when you got the PCN?



If so, it means you were parked right next to a fairly self-explanatory sign that you should not have missed, so I'm tempted to say you should pay the discount. My concern is that an adjudicator would overlook any technical arguments and simply throw the book at you.


This post has been edited by justadisplayname: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 12:08
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hcandersen
post Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 12:44
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The PCN states as far as is relevant:

Parked in a resident's or shared use parking place or zone....


It does not allege that the car was in a zone, but a parking place or zone.

A 'Permit parking area:
an area—
(a)into which each entrance for vehicular traffic has been indicated by the sign provided for at item 5 of the sign table in Part 3 of Schedule 5; and
(b)where any parking place within that area reserved for the use of the permit holders as indicated on that sign is not shown by markings on the road (whether or not an upright sign is placed next to, or near, such a parking place to indicate that only the permit holders in question may use the place)


The OP was parked either next to or no more than 8 car lengths from a PPA sign.
The area of highway was unmarked, therefore it can be presumed with confidence that they were in a 'parking place within that area reserved for the use of the permit holders as indicated on the [PPA] sign.

A PCN must state the grounds of contravention with sufficient clarity and applicability.

Does anyone know whether RO7 is not a resident's permit identifier?

Given that the OP has posted a list of properties which are able to have permits which includes the roads in question, then IMO the auspices that there is a valid argument on the issue of insufficiently clear and accurate grounds are not good.
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cp8759
post Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 13:19
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QUOTE (justadisplayname @ Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 13:07) *
Not really bothered about hiding it I just see other people do it. I guess I’ll wait for other responses and make my decision accordingly

That was the only sign once I entered the road. Only noticed it after I got the pcn. Didn’t drive further down to see repeat signs

Well if you car was parked right next to the sign then it would take an almighty cock-up by the authority to get out of this one. Obviously you must have seen the sign as you parked right next to it, having driven towards the sign in order to park.

Still, let's see the rejection, you never know they might mess it up.


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justadisplayname
post Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 14:37
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 14:19) *
QUOTE (justadisplayname @ Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 13:07) *
Not really bothered about hiding it I just see other people do it. I guess I’ll wait for other responses and make my decision accordingly

That was the only sign once I entered the road. Only noticed it after I got the pcn. Didn’t drive further down to see repeat signs

Well if you car was parked right next to the sign then it would take an almighty cock-up by the authority to get out of this one. Obviously you must have seen the sign as you parked right next to it, having driven towards the sign in order to park.

Still, let's see the rejection, you never know they might mess it up.


Worth a try and delay the payment if rejected. Could you help with what to write on appeal?
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cp8759
post Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 22:13
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QUOTE (justadisplayname @ Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 15:37) *
Worth a try and delay the payment if rejected. Could you help with what to write on appeal?

Write a draft, put it on here and we'll tidy it up for you.


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justadisplayname
post Thu, 7 Jul 2022 - 06:13
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 23:13) *
QUOTE (justadisplayname @ Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 15:37) *
Worth a try and delay the payment if rejected. Could you help with what to write on appeal?

Write a draft, put it on here and we'll tidy it up for you.

Wouldn’t even know how to start it.
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cp8759
post Thu, 7 Jul 2022 - 12:12
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QUOTE (justadisplayname @ Thu, 7 Jul 2022 - 07:13) *
Wouldn’t even know how to start it.

Let's start with the basics then: did you see the sign? If so, did you read it? If so, why did you think you could park there?

Or did you know you weren't allowed to park there, took a chance and just got caught out?


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justadisplayname
post Thu, 7 Jul 2022 - 19:55
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 7 Jul 2022 - 13:12) *
QUOTE (justadisplayname @ Thu, 7 Jul 2022 - 07:13) *
Wouldn’t even know how to start it.

Let's start with the basics then: did you see the sign? If so, did you read it? If so, why did you think you could park there?

Or did you know you weren't allowed to park there, took a chance and just got caught out?




In regards to the PCN number: xxxxx I did not see a sign that this umarked area of the street was for permit holder.

Upon entering the road, I noticed the opposite side of the road had a sign for pay and display. And on the side I parked, there were no signs, yellow lines or parking bays. This is why I chose to park at this spot.

Upon returning to my vehicle, I had noticed I received a PCN on my windscreen. When the PCN stated code 12 parked in a residents zone or shared use, I was very confused as I had not seen any permit signs next to the bay I was parked in.

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cp8759
post Thu, 7 Jul 2022 - 22:57
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I hate to tell you but to me that is, quite literally, incredibile. You car was right next to the sign.

We can undoubtedly do better than that but you need to be straight with us: did you not know what the sign means? Did you just take a chance?


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justadisplayname
post Fri, 8 Jul 2022 - 12:07
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 7 Jul 2022 - 23:57) *
I hate to tell you but to me that is, quite literally, incredibile. You car was right next to the sign.

We can undoubtedly do better than that but you need to be straight with us: did you not know what the sign means? Did you just take a chance?


Not at all. The picture looks obvious from that angle. I turned into the road and pulled up to the parking spot where I parked. I only noticed the sign when I came back and saw a ticket I looked around which was when I noticed the sign.
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hcandersen
post Fri, 8 Jul 2022 - 16:20
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Upon entering the road, I noticed the opposite side of the road had a sign for pay and display

Is there evidence of this?

This practice is NOT recommended and arguably not permitted unless the PPA sign is of the form shown on p.162 i.e. except in signed bays.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...-chapter-03.pdf

In any reps you should ask the authority why the PPA sign does not have a lower panel which advises motorists that there are marked bays in an otherwise unmarked area.
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justadisplayname
post Fri, 8 Jul 2022 - 18:55
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 8 Jul 2022 - 17:20) *
Upon entering the road, I noticed the opposite side of the road had a sign for pay and display

Is there evidence of this?

This practice is NOT recommended and arguably not permitted unless the PPA sign is of the form shown on p.162 i.e. except in signed bays.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/go...-chapter-03.pdf

In any reps you should ask the authority why the PPA sign does not have a lower panel which advises motorists that there are marked bays in an otherwise unmarked area.


Yes I am able to get a picture which can prove it. Clear sign of pay and display. How could one word this on appeal ?
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cp8759
post Fri, 8 Jul 2022 - 19:20
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QUOTE (justadisplayname @ Fri, 8 Jul 2022 - 13:07) *
Not at all. The picture looks obvious from that angle. I turned into the road and pulled up to the parking spot where I parked. I only noticed the sign when I came back and saw a ticket I looked around which was when I noticed the sign.

My concern is that even if an adjudicator accepts your account (and I think you'd be lucky), they would still refuse the appeal on the basis that the sign was there to be seen.


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