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Lost PCN from UKPC, how to proceed
creesteN
post Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 22:06
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Hi everyone,

I live in a residential area where there are each private bays for each house as well as four visitor bays. Since we have two cars in the household, sometimes I make use of these visitor bays overnight as they're empty and no one has an issue with it.

I don't necessarily disagree with the violation of terms and conditions that are on the property, but I don't like the idea of fuelling these scammers financially. I have 14 days to pay £60, then £100 afterwards to 28 days.

The area is managed by UKPC. Upon entrance there is a sign stating this is private land with a big sign "Designated Bays only. See notices in car park for conditions. Car park managed by UK Parking Control."

By the bays where I was parked there are the conditions. Here they are:



And these are (one of the) bays:



There are also small bays marked as M beside the V bays which as I understand are motorbike bays but aren't described in the T&Cs as far as I can see.

So according to the ticket what happened. On the 12'th of July at 7.10ish was initial spotting of the car, on the 13th of July at 7.40ish ticket was issued. This is more than 24hrs, so I perhaps broke the no return for 24 hours rule. The ticket states the reason for this was "Parking time exceeded maximum". The T&Cs state 4 hours maximum.

What if I moved the vehicle in between those two hours and came back for another 4 hours in the morning next day? I know that perhaps would break the no return rule, but that's not what was stated on the ticket!

The T&Cs seem unclear. It says 4 hours maximum stay in bays .... - but what if I move bays?

Does the fact that I lost the original PCN affect anything? Should I perhaps just pay them somehow?
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post Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 22:06
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Eljayjay
post Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 22:16
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Are you the leasehold owner of the property or a sub-tenant.

If you are the former, you need a copy of your head lease.

If you are the latter, you need a copies of both the head lease and your tenancy agreement.

Residential parking cases are usually easily defended, but you do need to do some homework, the staring point for which is to get copies of these two documents.

If you do not have a copy of the head lease and cannot get hold of a copy any other way, you need to complete a form OC2 which you will need to hand-in at or mail to the Land Registry with the appropriate fee.

The chances are that parking where you live is governed by the head leases and that they contain no requirement whatsoever to display parking permits.

If/when you have the document(s), report back here and I or someone else will tell you what to look for.
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creesteN
post Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 22:31
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QUOTE (Eljayjay @ Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 23:16) *
Are you the leasehold owner of the property or a sub-tenant.

If you are the former, you need a copy of your head lease.

If you are the latter, you need a copies of both the head lease and your tenancy agreement.

Residential parking cases are usually easily defended, but you do need to do some homework, the staring point for which is to get copies of these two documents.

If you do not have a copy of the head lease and cannot get hold of a copy any other way, you need to complete a form OC2 which you will need to hand-in at or mail to the Land Registry with the appropriate fee.

The chances are that parking where you live is governed by the head leases and that they contain no requirement whatsoever to display parking permits.

If/when you have the document(s), report back here and I or someone else will tell you what to look for.


Thank you. I'm a sub-tenant and I'll see if I can get the head lease agreement. I have no written tenancy agreement, it was verbal. Also, I've been parked in visitor bays. There's no display parking permit requirement there.

This post has been edited by creesteN: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 22:33
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creesteN
post Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 13:46
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Can't get the lease agreement from the landlord. He wants to avoid trouble. However this caught my attention: "that they contain no requirement whatsoever to display parking permits.". I was in a visitor space, no permit required! Please note that.

This post has been edited by creesteN: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 13:46
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 13:50
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Just get it from teh LR then. Form OC2, small fee to pay.

Look, you know they wonit accept any form of appeal
Just get the head lease. Then you KNOW what status these V bays have.
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Eljayjay
post Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 16:09
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Do as nosferatu1001 suggests, i.e. get the head lease from the Land Registry.

Unless and until you have the head lease, you have no knowledge of your landlord’s rights and, that being so, you have no knowledge of your own rights.
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creesteN
post Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 22:24
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What am I looking for in the head lease? Also, should I try and contact UKPC to see what my PCN number even is? I don't hold the ticket anymore.

This post has been edited by creesteN: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 22:25
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Eljayjay
post Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 22:40
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You will need to check the lease for anything and everything of relevance. The easiest way to do this would be to scan it as a searchable pdf file - you will need something better than the basic version of Adobe for this such as Nitro Pro.

You then need to search it from beginning to end for any word containing “park”, copying and pasting what it says into a separate document.

Parking companies often claim that their parking schemes have been introduced through clauses in a lease allowing for the introduction of rules and/or regulations. So, search again for any words containing “rule” or “regulation”. Again, copy and paste what it says into the new document.

Search for what the lease has to say about any amounts payable by the leaseholder. Again, copy and paste what is says. Hopefully, the only amounts due will be the usual ground rent and service charges.

Look for, copy and paste what the lease has to say about “peaceful” or “quiet” enjoyment.

Look for, copy and paste what the lease has to say about “third” party rights.

Read post #11 in ide’s thread to get your head around the difficulties which parking companies face in well defended residential parking cases.

If I were you, I would not bother to contact the parking company. Ignore (but file safely for future reference) everything except a letter before action/letter before claim/letter of claim - they are the same thing - or a formal claim form.


This post has been edited by Eljayjay: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 22:47
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creesteN
post Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 23:27
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Wow thank you so much! With the help of this forum I managed to win in Magistrates against GMP, you guys are incredible.

Will get onto the form asap in the morning as it's already been a while since I received the ticket.

May I just ask, will my landlord be informed of me trying to get hold of the head lease? He asked me not to pursue this but I'm keen to do so.
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Eljayjay
post Wed, 1 Aug 2018 - 01:08
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No, although individuals think of their leases as being private and personal, they contain rights and covenants of which they should make their tenants aware. In addition, as they are matters of public record, the Land Registry has no reason to inform leaseholders when copies of their leases are obtained.
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ManxRed
post Wed, 1 Aug 2018 - 08:10
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Does the landlord simply expect you to pay up then? Anything to preserve his nice quiet life?

Would he be OK with you deducting the parking charge payment from your rent?


--------------------
Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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Redivi
post Wed, 1 Aug 2018 - 08:43
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Surprised to learn from the CAB site that most tenants don't have the right to a written agreement
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creesteN
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 21:59
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Appealed with the blue text from MSP. UKPC has cancelled the charge in "good will". Success again!
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