PCN over 28 days but letter dated before Options

[tommy2009]

Hi,
Before I go into details I may not have to bore you with...

Got a PCN today from CPS.

The date of the overstay is 17/5/19.
Today is 17/6/19.

I think I'm right in saying they are well out of time?
However, they have dated the letter 11/6/19, which is within the time.
There is no postmark on the envelope, just a logo for Royal Mail with a C9 10045.

Should I just write back and tell them I got the PCN outside the 28 days?

Many thanks.

This post has been edited by tommy2009: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 - 12:38

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[ostell]

If no windscreen ticket then NTK has to arrive within 14 day, windscreen ticket the between day 28 and 56. Wrong for either

[ManxRed]

Note that missing the dates doesn't invalidate the ticket as such, it just means they haven't complied with Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, and they cannot transfer liability to the Registered Keeper. You would suggest that they take the matter up with the driver, who you are under no legal obligation to name, and won't be doing so.

That pretty much stuffs them, but they can be a dogged lot, these private parking companies.

[Steve_999]

Bear in mind the failure is only relevant to keeper liability under PoFA, so if you divulge the driver's details it's of no help!

Edit - beaten to it!

This post has been edited by Steve_999: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 11:30

[Jlc]

Got a PCN today from CPS.

Please confirm the exact company name.

[tommy2009]

Many thanks for all your replies.

The firm is Complete Parking Services. Although the address is PCN Parking Solutions.

No windscreen ticket, it was ANPR.

I've tried to keep my letter short and sweet -


Dear Sirs,

I have today, 17/6/19, received a PCN from yourselves.

PCN No.

Reg No.

Although the date on your letter is 11/6/19 I did not receive it until today, being 32 days after the alleged parking infringement.

Therefore, you have not complied with Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, and cannot transfer liability to the Registered Keeper.

If you wish to pursue this further I suggest you contact the driver.
I am under no legal obligation to name the driver and will not be doing so.


Yours,

My name

(Do I sign it?)

I've attached copies of their letter.

It says on the front, before Important Notice, 'This PCN will be deemed to have been served on the second working day after the date of posting unless the contrary is proved'.
I've just spent 45 minutes in a queue to Royal Mail. They say there's no way RM can verify it was delivered today.

Although, that also means they can't prove they did post it in time?

Should I post my letter tomorrow?
We go away for 2 weeks soon and I'll probably? get a response in that time. Does it affect anything?

Many thanks once again,
Tom

This post has been edited by tommy2009: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 17:09

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[PJG]

CLEARLY STATE YOU WRITE TO THEM AS REGISTERED KEEPER OF SAID VEHICLE
Just simply send an appeal to them as Reg Keeper pointing out the dates and underline them. Pointing out that as this was camera issued PCN they needed to apply to DVLA within 14 days then notify you the RK within that 14 day period of the issue to have Schedule 4 compliance. Their dates simply do not support such, ie incident dated 17th May letter to you 11th June, if it was a ticket they have started to early(28 days) Simply invite them to cancel if not issue POPLA code and you will win and cost them more money.

DO NOT OUT THE DRIVER OR GIVE ANY INDICATION THAT YOU WERE THE DRIVER??????

This post has been edited by PJG: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 20:01

[Jlc]

Simply invite them to cancel if not issue POPLA code and you will win and cost them more money.

From an IPC member?

[PJG]

Simply invite them to cancel if not issue POPLA code and you will win and cost them more money.

From an IPC member?

If they are going to ignore a well fashioned appeal, its a case of either pay and it will go away or wait for any court action and win in court??. As has been said the IPC refusal just makes you think you have too pay but on the evidence supplied they will lose at local court. Its just a shame that its necessary to have the hassle with a an IPC matter that Gladestones will take you to court and they will loose

This post has been edited by PJG: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 20:15

[Jlc]

Probably, but it would be best if the keeper can state they weren't driving at the material time...

[tommy2009]

Thank you for the comments and advice.
But... now I'm confused.

Are you saying that even though they didn't send the PCN in the allotted time frame they can still take me to court?

As the registered keeper I also have another defence... possibly.

I have a long list of disabilities and displayed my disabled badge.
No good when it was ANPR, I know.

I have had a stroke, which has left me with left-sided disabilities and pain.
I also use a walking stick because of osteoarthritis in both hips and spine and walk slowly.
I have peripheral vascular disease which means I can't walk far before pain in my legs means I have to sit for 15 to 20 minutes.

On that day I was particularly bad.
The 25 minute overstay was as a result of my disabilities preventing me from getting to the car earlier.

Does the Disability Act mean I am being discriminated against?

Lastly, should I appeal as the registered keeper on either or both of these counts?

Thank you.
Tom

[Jlc]

Are you saying that even though they didn't send the PCN in the allotted time frame they can still take me to court?

Yes, why not? It's a contractual matter - they would have to show you were driving on the balance of probabilities.

It's annoying as if CPS were a BPA member then POPLA (the appeal body) would uphold a lack of keeper liability appeal whereas the IAS won't.

Does the Disability Act mean I am being discriminated against?

The Equality Act 2010 (Replaced the DDA) means they have to make reasonable adjustments for person with protected characteristics. It's quite a stretch to claim you are being discriminated against. But the reasonable adjustments would likely amount to special bays and some additional time to enter and leave due to mobility issues etc. At the moment they are unaware such a person is involved.

You don't say what sort of car park it is - the owner (or major shop) may be able to assist in the circumstances.

Lastly, should I appeal as the registered keeper on either or both of these counts?

With a lack of Keeper Liability then always as the RK only.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 09:17

[tommy2009]

Thank you JLC for clarifying matters.

I probably didn't make it clear about how I should appeal.

Should I just go with the late PCN as RK.

Should I just go with the disability element of why the car was late leaving as RK.

Or should I combine the two as RK.

Would 12.5 mins extra getting the ticket and back to my car, then walking out, then 12.5 min for getting back late, then leaving the car park, seem a reasonable adjustment to you, given my disabilities. I ask because I've read your posts for many years and value your opinion.
I should add, I value everyone's advice and opinions I've had over the years. I'll stop digging now.

It's a small private car park in Scarborough. No disabled bays as far as I'm aware. Here's the link. I hope.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.279684,-0...8i6656?hl=en-GB

Thank you.

Tom

This post has been edited by tommy2009: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 13:18

[tommy2009]

I was hoping someone could look this letter over.
I need to post it by Friday as we're out of the country for 2 weeks from Saturday.

I found a post from SchoolRunMum about the disability stuff.

On my letter the dates are in bold and underlined.

Thanks.

Complete Parking Services



My name and address

date



Dear Sirs,

On 17/6/19, as Registered Keeper, I received a PCN from yourselves.

PCN No.

Reg No.

Although the date on your letter is 11/6/19 I did not receive it until 17/6/19, being 32 days after the alleged parking infringement on 17/5/19.
As this is a camera issued PCN you would have needed to apply to DVLA within 14 days of the alleged infringement, then notify me within 14 days, as the Registered Keeper, to have Schedule 4 compliance.

Therefore, you have not complied with Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and cannot transfer liability to me, the Registered Keeper.

I would therefore request that you cancel this PCN.

If you wish to pursue this further I suggest you contact the driver. I am under no legal obligation to name the driver and will not be doing so.

I would further like to add the following -

I am disabled and have a Blue Badge, a copy of which is enclosed.

I can provide proof of mobility problems, if required to, with x-rays and Specialists reports.

The PCN showed an 'overstay' of 25 minutes.
The Equality Act 2010 states reasonable adjustments should be made for disabled people. After explaining to you my disabilities I feel 25 minutes or more would be a reasonable adjustment.
As a disabled person, I feel I should not be discriminated against as an occupant of the car for taking some minutes longer than able-bodied people to go about their daily lives.

As explained in the Equality and Human Rights Commision Code of Practice, I draw your specific attention to your statutory duty in the Code, to avoid 'indirect discrimination' by applying a blanket term or policy (such as a time limit with no flexibility for disabled people).

I am aware you did not know the circumstances when issuing the PCN. I would hope that, now I have explained them, you will inform me that you have cancelled the ticket.

Yours,

My name

(Do I sign it?)

This post has been edited by tommy2009: Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 19:05

[PJG]

Hold of sending this until some more experienced individuals on here can advise. Your i initial paragraphs about the out of time for keeper liabilities is your Ace regarding winning.

The paragraphs around your disabilities would tend to indicate that you were the driver. From what I have read on here the IPC side would try to claim that you are the driver. If you are the only person insured to drive and you make great mention of your disabilities i t maybe difficult for you to infer that you were not the driver.

just hold on sending

[tommy2009]

Thanks PJG.

I did say that 'on days like these driving is impossible', because of my disabilities.


Thanks for the help.

Tom

This post has been edited by tommy2009: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 - 13:41

[The Rookie]

You merely state that an occupant of the vehicle has protected characteristics (if the condition is one....)

Are you definitely the registered keeper? You have the registration document?

[tommy2009]

Thanks Rookie.

Yes I have the documents.


Many thanks,
Tom

This post has been edited by tommy2009: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 - 13:39

[The Rookie]

The key bit is having protected characteristics, you can explain why that warrants extra time but you don't have to go into detail.

The merely was that you were an occupant, you didn't have to be driving to be there.

[Sheffield Dave]

Are you trying to state that
1) you were not the driver who parked card the car, and as evidence of this you are pointing out that at the relevant time it would have been too painful for you to drive, or
2) that because there was a disabled occupant of the car at the time, special considerations should apply.

it's not clear to me which of the two you're trying to say.