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PCN - National Car Parks Limited (NCP)
Ermac
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 11:31
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Hello good people,

Here I am again asking for your advice. Back in June I entered one of NCP's car park in Wolverhampton. I've been there for 11 minutes and 29 seconds and I did not leave my car. Couple weeks later I got my Parking Charge Notice for this "Crime", asking me to pay 60 pounds or 100 after 14 weeks "discount" period.

A few weeks later I got "Keeper Liability Notice" letter informing me that I have 14 days to pay 100 pounds or this case will be forwarded to Debt Collector Company.

I know I am here in wrong and I should've buy the ticket but at the time I was there with my mentally ill friend, we had a cigarette and by the time I realised I don't have change, I left the car park.

Until now I did not do anything about this and I know I should've appeal. I just couldn't get my head around with my current family problems and 12 hours shifts at work.

What are my chances of getting away from paying this fine?

Could you please advise?
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post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 11:31
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The Rookie
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 11:41
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Firstly edit your post NOW to refer to the Driver only as 'the driver.

'The keeper' is now getting invoices.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 11:41


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Ermac
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 12:00
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 12:41) *
Firstly edit your post NOW to refer to the Driver only as 'the driver.

'The keeper' is now getting invoices.


Sorry I am not sure what do you mean. I am only quoting what is on the actual letters.
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Jlc
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 12:36
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QUOTE (Ermac @ Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 13:00) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 12:41) *
Firstly edit your post NOW to refer to the Driver only as 'the driver.

'The keeper' is now getting invoices.


Sorry I am not sure what do you mean. I am only quoting what is on the actual letters.

Along with who was driving... But I don't think a makes a lot of difference since they are relying on the Protection of Freedoms Act to pursue the keeper anyway.

Bottom line is that they would have allowed 10 minutes grace period to leave without raising a charge.

11 minutes breaches this - but there's still an argument that you did not accept the offer and left.

They aren't particularly litigious but have raised a few claims recently. Await their next move - you can ignore 'debt' collector letters.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 12:37


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Ermac
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 18:26
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 13:36) *
QUOTE (Ermac @ Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 13:00) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 12:41) *
Firstly edit your post NOW to refer to the Driver only as 'the driver.

'The keeper' is now getting invoices.


Sorry I am not sure what do you mean. I am only quoting what is on the actual letters.

Along with who was driving... But I don't think a makes a lot of difference since they are relying on the Protection of Freedoms Act to pursue the keeper anyway.

Bottom line is that they would have allowed 10 minutes grace period to leave without raising a charge.

11 minutes breaches this - but there's still an argument that you did not accept the offer and left.

They aren't particularly litigious but have raised a few claims recently. Await their next move - you can ignore 'debt' collector letters.



I take it you suggest not to pay and to wait?
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 26 Jul 2018 - 06:48
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Yes, thats exactly what they said to do.
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Ermac
post Fri, 5 Oct 2018 - 22:06
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Hello everyone,

I've received a letter from NCP saying that my account has been passed to their legal team and another letter from bwlegal instructing me to pay within next 16 days or else they'll take me to the court.

What do you advise would be best thing to do now?
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 07:20
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No, the letter from BW legal does not they WILL take you to court. Try reqading it again, more carefully this time. No skimming.

Give that *exact* letter appears on dozens of threads - including the 16 day deadline that is a complete give away - what do YOU htink yo ushould do, based onthe other threads you have looked into?
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Ermac
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 06:46
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Hello again,

Now I've got Letter of Claim from BWL and I am wondering if I have any rights to defend this. I did park there for 11 minutes and 29 seconds which exceeds the grace period by 1 minutes and 29 seconds. I simply didn't pay because I had no change. I got distracted and as soon as I realised I have no change I left the car park.

The original NCP notice contains photographic evidence recorded by ANPR camera. The letter from BWL is missing solicitors signature and the evidence (not sure if they must provide it again). Apart from this BWL was harassing me with phone calls few times a week (not sure who gave them my number).

Since I know I am guilty my question is do I have to pay or is there any way to dodge this?



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Jlc
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 10:27
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It's in the roboclaim queue. A claim will likely follow.

So you've had this letter for almost a month and done nothing? You should have used the enclosed forms.


There's no such thing as 'guilty' - but I'd still defend it on the basis that you could not comply with the contract on offer and left, i.e. there was no contract.

It would be good to see the signs - the £60 additional charge can easily be challenged.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 10:28


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 13:39
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LIterally every thread says not to give aweay the drivers identity, yet you keep on doing it

Respond to the LBC, same as you see in every thread
PRepare for a claim, as it WILL happen, and do so by reading around.
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Ermac
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 19:02
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It says about it does not makes a lot of difference who was driving since they are relying on the Protection of Freedoms Act to pursue the keeper anyway.


Here is my response to BW legal which I am planning to send them via email.


Dear BW Legal,

I am in receipt of your Letter of Claim, dated .

I dispute your claim as the driver did not enter the contract with your client NCP.

I require NCP to send me the following information/documents:
- How the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated?
- Provide me a copy of the contract with the landowner under which authority to bring the claim is asserted, as required by the IPC code of practice section B, clause 1.1;establishing yourself as the creditor.
- Provide me a map showing where any signs were displayed, including those upon entering the business park where the alleged contravention took place and the details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed).

Yours faithfully, (etc etc)


Thank you in advance!
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Jlc
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 20:20
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They don't have to calculate the charge. (ParkingEye v Beavis)

And they are BPA members and not IPC.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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SchoolRunMum
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 20:26
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QUOTE
... did park there for 11 minutes and 29 seconds


But no, the driver didn't park there at all, let alone for those minutes/seconds. That was the alleged total in-out driving time. And might well not be reliable either.

And the BPA CoP says the grace period must be a MINIMUM of ten minutes, not a MAXIMUM and a meeting in 2015 decided to increase that to eleven minutes (and the BPA then hoped everyone had forgotten that and never updated the CoP).

Do you have Google location on your phone, with data from that day to disprove the fake 11 mins 29 seconds timing that they are alleging from their unsynchronised system?



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Ermac
post Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 01:56
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Does the below looks better?

QUOTE
Dear BW Legal,

I write in response to your "letter of claim" dated xxx xxx xxx, the contents of which are noted. As registered keeper I dispute your claim as the driver did not enter the contract with your client NCP.

As the pre action protocols expect us to exchange sufficient information to understand each others position please forward to myself the original parking charge notice and a map showing where any signs were displayed, including those upon entering the business park where the alleged contravention took place and the details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed) as well as the operators contract which allows them to operate at the site (or indeed confirmation they own the land in question).

As well as the information already requested please answer the following questions :-

Who contravened your rules?

Who you are pursuing?

Have you followed the rules laid down in the Protection of freedoms act 2012 schedule 4?

How is the £60 extra made up ?

Not only will this information help comply with the pre action protocols it will also help achieve the over riding objective.

Having done some research on your claims I request that if you ignore my requests for information that your claim complies with

CPR 16

Contents of the claim form
16.2
(1) The claim form must –
(a) contain a concise statement of the nature of the claim

Contents of the particulars of claim
16.4
(1) Particulars of claim must include –
(a) a concise statement of the facts on which the claimant relies;

Practice direction 16

Other matters to be included in particulars of claim


7.5 Where a claim is based upon an agreement by conduct, the particulars of claim must specify the conduct relied on and state by whom, when and where the acts constituting the conduct were done.


CPR 22

Documents to be verified by a statement of truth
22.1
(1) The following documents must be verified by a statement of truth –
(a) a statement of case


Practice direction 22

Who may sign the statement of truth
3.1 In a statement of case, a response or an application notice, the statement of truth must be signed by

(2) the legal representative of the party or litigation friend.

3.7 Where a party is legally represented, the legal representative may sign the statement of truth on his behalf. The statement signed by the legal representative will refer to the client’s belief, not his own. In signing he must state the capacity in which he signs and the name of his firm where appropriate.

3.9 The individual who signs a statement of truth must print his full name clearly beneath his signature.

3.10 A legal representative who signs a statement of truth must sign in his own name and not that of his firm or employer.


Practice direction 7E

Signature
10 Any provision of the CPR which requires a document to be signed by any person is satisfied by that person entering their name on an online form.


I await your response.

Yours sincerely

I've checked my Google timeline and it's all over the shop



Also if they take me to the court do I need a solicitor with me?
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Jlc
post Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 08:18
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QUOTE (Ermac @ Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 01:56) *
Also if they take me to the court do I need a solicitor with me?

No, not worth the cost - you can't (normally) claim the cost.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Ermac
post Sat, 17 Nov 2018 - 19:04
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QUOTE
Thank you for contacting BW Legal.

Your email has been received and will be dealt with as soon as possible.

Before we are able to reply we need you to confirm a few Data Protection Questions which we have specified below.

If your email does not contain the below information, we kindly request you resend your email with the required information to enable us to deal with your query effectively.

BW Legal Reference:
Full Name:
First Line of Address:
Postcode:
Date of Birth:
Telephone Contact Number:
Authorised Email address:

Confirmation you wish for us to correspond with you via this address (Yes/No):

We make no commitment to response times on this general email account. Therefore, if you consider your matter is urgent, or should you wish to discuss your account with one of our helpful representatives today, you can call our offices on 0113 323 1784 and we will be happy to help.

Please be advised that our standard opening hours are:

Monday - Thursday
8am – 8pm
Friday
8am – 7pm
Saturday
9am – 1pm

Alternatively, you can also manage your account online by utilising our customer portal at www.bwlegal.co.uk and clicking on the customer login link to set up your account online. Our Customer Portal provides you with the functionality to speak to us by webchat, raise a query, complete your income and expenditure, make a payment or set up an affordable payment arrangement at your convenience.

BW Legal does not accept service of any court documents at this email address. Service of any court documents can be sent to disputeresolution@bwlegal.co.uk with the name of the court document in the subject header, followed by the parties names [eg: Witness Statement: ABC v XZY].

BW Legal

The above address is the office of BW Legal Services Limited (t/a BW Legal) which is a company registered in England and Wales under Company Registration No: 07966978. BW Legal is authorised and regulated by the Solicitors Regulation Authority (569773).

Authorised and Regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority in respect of consumer debt collection under Reg No: 619068

Copyright in this message and its attachments remains with us. Their contents are confidential and may be legally privileged. They are intended solely for the person to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender, and delete the message from your system immediately. You must not read, copy or use the contents of the email nor disclose it or its existence to anyone else.
Please note that communication by email is not guaranteed as 100% secure. If you wish to guarantee confidentiality, we recommend the use of personal delivery or fax communication. We do not accept responsibility for loss of confidentiality arising from use of email.
Although we have checked this email for viruses, it is not guaranteed to be virus free and it is your responsibility to scan the message and attachments prior to opening them.
We do not accept any responsibility for the consequences of passing on any virus.


What are your thoughts about the above automatic reply?
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Ermac
post Wed, 28 Nov 2018 - 18:10
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BWL response to my email.

QUOTE
Thank you for your email, the contents of which have been noted on file.

Please find attached a copy of the Notice to Keeper which Our Client issued to you as requested.
As established members of the British Parking Association, Our Client adheres to their Code of Practice for Private Enforcement on Private Land and Unregulated Car Parks ('Code of Practice'). This Code of Practice gives recommendations in regards to the signage within the Car Park. The signs within the car park comply with the recommendations in the Code of Practice and are therefore deemed reasonable.
Please be aware that the contract between Our Client and the landowner is a legally privileged document which you have no right to inspect. However, should this matter progress to court, the contract will be adduced as evidence.

· The driver of the vehicle contravened the rules of parking at the site by breaching the site’s Terms and Conditions, as the vehicle was parked without payment of the parking charge

· Our Client is pursuing you as the registered keeper of the vehicle.

· Our Client has followed the rules laid out and intends to rely on Schedule 4 of Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

· The signage in situ makes provision for our client to recover any additional costs (Contractual Costs) incurred by them in relation to the PCN. The Contractual Costs referred to above formed part of the terms and conditions (of the parking contract) which were accepted by you in the course of staying at the Car Park. Save for the fact that the sum of £60.00 attributable towards these costs are entirely reasonable for nature and type of work involved in recovering the parking charge, such costs are recoverable under the relevant parking code of practice.


Should you wish to discuss this matter further, please contact our office on 0113 487 043


Kind Regards,
bwlegal
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ostell
post Wed, 28 Nov 2018 - 18:27
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Point out to them that they have agreed that you are being pursued as the keeper but then they have erred in the penultimate paragraph by assuming that you were the driver rather than the keeper. As the keeper you could not have agreed to the T&C's as you did not have sight of the sign. Also POFA 4 (5) limits the summ that the keeper is liable for to the amount of the original PCN. Could they advise why they believe that POFA does not apply to their clients.
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Redivi
post Wed, 28 Nov 2018 - 18:47
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Would they also explain why they believe that CPR 27.14(2) and the Solicitors Code of Conduct Chapter 11 IB 11.8 does not apply to a charge that their previous correspondence has stated to be Legal Costs ?

This post has been edited by Redivi: Wed, 28 Nov 2018 - 19:38
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