PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

I've been ignoring, now not so sure
Rusty20
post Mon, 18 May 2020 - 10:35
Post #1


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 18 May 2020
Member No.: 108,702



Hi all. The driver has been ignoring letters regarding a parking charge notice thanks to my naivety and the belief "you can just ignore private landlord PCNs".

Driver didn't appeal and have literally just ignored the various letters.

They have just today opened the last couple that were sent:

Early March: "Last warning before court do not ignore!"
Early May: "14 days to pay before going to civil courts"

The driver parked for 3 hours and 15mins in a 3 hour free car park - Parc Tawe in Swansea.

On reading here today I can see the driver certainly missed following the best route with POPLA etc.

Is the best option now to pay? It's £100 plus a £70 fee, so £170.

This post has been edited by Rusty20: Mon, 18 May 2020 - 11:11
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Mon, 18 May 2020 - 10:35
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Jlc
post Mon, 18 May 2020 - 10:40
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 41,510
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: Planet Earth
Member No.: 49,223



Is this Excel?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rusty20
post Mon, 18 May 2020 - 10:45
Post #3


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 18 May 2020
Member No.: 108,702



Car park is Premier Park Ltd, letters are from PP Legal.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Mon, 18 May 2020 - 10:54
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 41,510
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: Planet Earth
Member No.: 49,223



Ok, ignoring wasn't the best idea as the threats of court are not empty. They can be litigious.

Have you tried contacting the shopping centre?

You won't generally find advice to pay on here - not least the ridiculous amount they are asking. (There's a specific why this additional charge is almost not enforceable)

Was there a specific reason why the driver was delayed?

This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 18 May 2020 - 17:39


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rusty20
post Mon, 18 May 2020 - 11:17
Post #5


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 18 May 2020
Member No.: 108,702



Thanks. Yes, appreciate this wasn't the best course of action so far.

The reason the driver was over, is Parc Tawe is split into 2 car parks - North and South, with a public road in between them. South is 4hr free parking, and North is 3hr free parking. Driver normally uses South and had no idea North was different terms!

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Mon, 18 May 2020 - 11:24
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17,088
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



So post up the redacted PCN, leaving dates.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rusty20
post Mon, 18 May 2020 - 12:58
Post #7


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 18 May 2020
Member No.: 108,702



We can't actually find the original PCN today. It was sent to the driver from the lease company, so we're trying to login in to their portal to see if a digital copy is there (having issues with a password reset for now).

Date of parking was 11th Nov 2019.

Edit - found the PCN on the leasing portal. Will redact and post later this afternoon, thanks for your help.

This post has been edited by Rusty20: Mon, 18 May 2020 - 23:04
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rusty20
post Mon, 18 May 2020 - 14:35
Post #8


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 18 May 2020
Member No.: 108,702



Here's the PCN.

This post has been edited by Rusty20: Mon, 18 May 2020 - 22:20
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Mon, 18 May 2020 - 16:04
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17,088
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



No, need the PCN that the hirer received from the parking company not the one the lease company received. Edit please the notice was sent to the hirer from the lease company, they could not possibly know the driver, they were not there. The hirer/keeper is handling this .

The lease company give details of the hirer to the parking company, together with portions of the .ease agreement. The parking company send a notice to hirer to the lessee together with those details of the hire agreement and the a copy of the original NTK. Usually the parking company forget to include those required documents and so can't hold the hirer liable. POFA paragraph 14

So what stage is the hirer actually at?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rusty20
post Mon, 18 May 2020 - 16:33
Post #10


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 18 May 2020
Member No.: 108,702



I certainly don't recall ever receiving that. You say a copy would be sent to the lease company also? I could ask them, but that may take time and I am close to the 14 days since the final - "final warning".
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Mon, 18 May 2020 - 17:32
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 28,687
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



No
They would not get a copy. YOU get sent a notice to the hirer, within which MUST be included a *copy* of the hire agreement. If they don't send that then the hirer - you - cannot be liable
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rusty20
post Mon, 18 May 2020 - 17:52
Post #12


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 18 May 2020
Member No.: 108,702



Ok thank you. I'm 95% certain they did not send a copy of my lease agreement.

What would you do in our position?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Mon, 18 May 2020 - 18:04
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 41,510
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: Planet Earth
Member No.: 49,223



As you've ignored until now I'd put this all out in writing - basically no liability (PoFA fails), an amount that's abuse of process etc. (They'll try their hardest to claim it's unreasonable behaviour to be ignored)

They'll ignore it of course - and then wait and see if they raise a claim, then defend.

Your only alternative is to pay an escalated amount... (Which we aren't going to recommended - but does guarantee closure...)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 18 May 2020 - 18:04


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rusty20
post Mon, 18 May 2020 - 18:19
Post #14


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 18 May 2020
Member No.: 108,702



Great, thanks - will do that. We're happy to defend if it comes to it.

Would they really take folk to court for 12mins over a 3hr stay? Seems risky for them.

Are there templated answers for those 2 points? Happy to search if there will be examples within the forum.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Mon, 18 May 2020 - 18:23
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 41,510
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: Planet Earth
Member No.: 49,223



They'll be running a grace of 10 minutes - but there are plenty of arguments for any court hearing around the actual parked time, time to look at the contract, leave etc. etc.

Have a look around threads and pull something together. Ostell (for example) will have posts for failing to fully comply with PoFA (Paragraph 14).

You'll be asking them how they justify random add-ons considering the courts are considering those unenforceable as an 'abuse of process'...

This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 18 May 2020 - 18:24


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sandero333
post Mon, 18 May 2020 - 19:48
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 111
Joined: 17 Dec 2019
Member No.: 107,101



It is unfortunate that this has been ignored as I had a similar issue with Premier Park in December 2019.
This was 12 minutes over the 3 hours parking.Went to Popla and Premier Park folded and no further action was pursued.
Those who are eminently qualified in this field will advise whether my defence would be applicable in county court in this instance.
You can search for my thread within this forum
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Mon, 18 May 2020 - 21:14
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17,088
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



You seem to misunderstand. YOU receive a Notice to Hirer from the parking company and with that there should be a copy of the hire agreement AND a copy of the Notice to Keeper sent to the hire company.

Sooooo.... have you received a Notice to Hirer addressed to you ? If not what are you acting on? And why are they writing to you?

If you received a Notice to Hirer without the documents then your appeal should have been:

Sirs

Ref PCN xxxxx VRM yyyyyy

I am the hirer/keeper of the above vehicle and am in receipt of the PCN you issued. I have no liability on this matter as you have failed to meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to supply the additional documents mandated by section 14 (2) (a) of the Act. You cannot therefore transfer liability from the driver at the time to me, the hirer keeper..

There is no legal requirement to identify the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc.


I suggest you edit your posts, the driver parked, the keeper received the letters and is handling matters, the identity of the driver is unknown and should remain so

This post has been edited by ostell: Mon, 18 May 2020 - 21:17
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Rusty20
post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 15:13
Post #18


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 18 May 2020
Member No.: 108,702



QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 18 May 2020 - 19:23) *
They'll be running a grace of 10 minutes - but there are plenty of arguments for any court hearing around the actual parked time, time to look at the contract, leave etc. etc.

Have a look around threads and pull something together. Ostell (for example) will have posts for failing to fully comply with PoFA (Paragraph 14).

You'll be asking them how they justify random add-ons considering the courts are considering those unenforceable as an 'abuse of process'...

The signage states parking starts 5min after entry. I don't think they have a leg to stand on based on the required 10min exit grace period, plus their advertised 5min period prior to parking starting - if they try to go to court.


QUOTE (Sandero333 @ Mon, 18 May 2020 - 20:48) *
It is unfortunate that this has been ignored as I had a similar issue with Premier Park in December 2019.
This was 12 minutes over the 3 hours parking.Went to Popla and Premier Park folded and no further action was pursued.
Those who are eminently qualified in this field will advise whether my defence would be applicable in county court in this instance.
You can search for my thread within this forum

Very helpful, thanks - I can make a similar argument to yours if it comes to it.

QUOTE (ostell @ Mon, 18 May 2020 - 22:14) *
You seem to misunderstand. YOU receive a Notice to Hirer from the parking company and with that there should be a copy of the hire agreement AND a copy of the Notice to Keeper sent to the hire company.

Sooooo.... have you received a Notice to Hirer addressed to you ? If not what are you acting on? And why are they writing to you?

If you received a Notice to Hirer without the documents then your appeal should have been:

Sirs

Ref PCN xxxxx VRM yyyyyy

I am the hirer/keeper of the above vehicle and am in receipt of the PCN you issued. I have no liability on this matter as you have failed to meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to supply the additional documents mandated by section 14 (2) (a) of the Act. You cannot therefore transfer liability from the driver at the time to me, the hirer keeper..

There is no legal requirement to identify the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc.


I suggest you edit your posts, the driver parked, the keeper received the letters and is handling matters, the identity of the driver is unknown and should remain so

I should have mentioned sorry, the hirer is a limited company - so correspondence is addressed to the company. I will reply showing the company does not have liability based on their failures in section 14. If they for some bizarre reason take the company to court, we will not only argue this in court but also demonstrate their signage (5 min entry time before parking duration starts) + 10 minute BPA grace period exceed the 13 minute overstay. No doubt some additional points can also be made.

Thanks for help everyone, will update in due course!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 15:24
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 41,510
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: Planet Earth
Member No.: 49,223



QUOTE (Rusty20 @ Wed, 20 May 2020 - 16:13) *
The signage states parking starts 5min after entry. I don't think they have a leg to stand on based on the required 10min exit grace period, plus their advertised 5min period prior to parking starting - if they try to go to court.

The latest BPA CoP changed grace period. They altered it - in favour of the operators...

But on your material date it was the previous version that matters. Check here.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ostell
post Wed, 20 May 2020 - 16:32
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17,088
Joined: 8 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,457



So there WAS a Notice to Hirer issued. (It's like drawing teeth!)

So a modified response is:

Sirs

Ref PCN xxxxx VRM yyyyyy

We are the hirer/keeper of the above vehicle and are in receipt of the PCN you issued. We have no liability on this matter as you have failed to meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to supply the additional documents mandated by section 14 (2) (a) of the Act. You cannot therefore transfer liability from the driver at the time to us, the hirer keeper..

As a body corporate we could not have been driving and as there is no legal requirement to identify the driver at the time we will not be doing so.

Any further communication with us on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and our details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc.


Send on company headed paper with signature by an officer.

Send so that it arrives on day 19 after the date on the notice to hirer so that they cannot correct within the 21 day relevant period

This post has been edited by ostell: Wed, 20 May 2020 - 19:32
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Friday, 29th March 2024 - 11:17
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here