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PCN for helping someone move, A PCN for a 13 minute stop while helping someone move out
itsmeyou
post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 22:05
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Hey all,

In the middle of December I received a PCN through my door, see image below.

https://ibb.co/gDhdxYJ

The situation is a small residential set of apartments with parking space in front and out back through an arch.

Myself and friend were using out two vehicles to help a 3rd friend move their stuff out. While we spent time loading my friends vehicle, I parked my car at in the rear car park where the friend that lived there said I should.
They simply said I should park out back, this is because their landlord had given their parking space to another resident as they did not have a car (technically a breach of their rental contract).
I moved my vehicle away when it came to loading and then left the site entirely.

The PCN is for 13 minutes worth of time.

After I looked around online I decided to appeal (I hadn't discovered these forums).
My appeal was from a template from money saving expert. It layout mitigating circumstances which are the ones I have laid out so far in this post.

This appeal was rejected. Here is the letter.

https://ibb.co/zFf7dmg
https://ibb.co/7CW5qyj

My question is, how should I proceed from here onward?

If you need any more info or clarification please ask, and thanks for any assistance.
It all feels a bit silly getting charged from helping someone to move.
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post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 22:05
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ostell
post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 23:21
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There was o warning of keeper liability, POFA 9 (2) (f) and therefore no keeper liability.

Do the signs say that the car must be registered on the database? If not then an unlisted condition cannot be breached. Get photos of signs

Is the space documented in the lease? If yes then why are third party offering a contract to park when there is no need as there is already a contract


What are the dates?

This is IPC so wait and see if a letter of claim is raised
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itsmeyou
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 10:33
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Just looked at some photos I have of the signs, they do say

"All Vehicles must be registered on the (location) Database

I will check about the space being documented in the lease, I think the theory is that you are only allowed to park in your designated spot, for which my friends was given away.
It is a set of flats, and I think that the landlord is turning them all into airbnbs but otherwise I very handsoff and wants nothing to do with anything. My friend had asked him to remove it and he just replied with that's an issue for myself and the PCN company.

Dates are 7th Dec

Is a letter of claim like a letter before claim?

Edit: My friend has said the reason the landlord has ANPR is to combat football fans.

I have just seen a copy of the lease and they were promised a space @ £0.00/m


This post has been edited by itsmeyou: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 11:03
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Jlc
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 11:09
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QUOTE (itsmeyou @ Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 22:05) *
It all feels a bit silly getting charged from helping someone to move.

HHJ Harris may agree with you - here.

See paragraph 19-21.

However, you are not party to any lease but the principle remains.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 11:09


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ostell
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 11:55
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But the parking space will still be in the lease, even if the landlord gave it away.

Do the signs say how you can register on the database? An impossible contract.
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itsmeyou
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 15:41
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 11:09) *
QUOTE (itsmeyou @ Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 22:05) *
It all feels a bit silly getting charged from helping someone to move.

HHJ Harris may agree with you - here.

See paragraph 19-21.

However, you are not party to any lease but the principle remains.


Should I take from this that as I am not party to the lease that I am similar in principle to a tradesmen such as Amazon delivery a parcel. Thus I was stopped not parked while loading the second vehicle and then mine.

QUOTE (ostell @ Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 11:55) *
But the parking space will still be in the lease, even if the landlord gave it away.

Do the signs say how you can register on the database? An impossible contract.


Here is a photo of the sign, location and location number removed.
Talking to my friend it's not mentioned in the lease. To get on the data base the landlord had sent them links through text and explained they would have to pay the admin of registering on the data base (£1.75).

https://ibb.co/RBwyM2K

This post has been edited by itsmeyou: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 15:50
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Jlc
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 17:23
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Exactly - otherwise moving would be an impossible task (and not the purpose of the parking regime...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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itsmeyou
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 18:04
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My planned action is to appeal to the IAS (I think or is it the IPC) and include the document you included also as part of my argument.

Do you think this is a good method of action for me to take?
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Sheffield Dave
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 22:48
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No, the "I"AS is a kangaroo court which is virtually guaranteed to reject your appeal.
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itsmeyou
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 23:07
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Where should I look to continue my appeal or do I just appeal the original company?
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 16 Jan 2020 - 09:18
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You do not "continue" an appeal once you have appealed to an IPC registered company. The IAS is NOT a valid route to appeal.

You could point out that the vehicle was STOPPED (not parked, STOPPED has its own meaning) to assist with moviung from the block of flats.
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itsmeyou
post Thu, 16 Jan 2020 - 12:23
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So just send another email to National Parking Enforcement saying that I was stopped for loading, not parked and maybe even bring up the document mentioned in another reply about someone else's case.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 16 Jan 2020 - 13:24
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Dont tell them who drove, noone says to do that unless we are absolutely sure.

Post your draft here for comment, rathe than us guessing what you actually will say.
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itsmeyou
post Sun, 19 Jan 2020 - 22:16
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 16 Jan 2020 - 13:24) *
Dont tell them who drove, noone says to do that unless we are absolutely sure.

Post your draft here for comment, rathe than us guessing what you actually will say.


Apologises for the late reply, have been caught up with work.

This is my draft. I don't thinks its the best, but I am not very experienced in writing letters of this nature

https://ibb.co/Lk97hwj

I am worried about the fact the sign states about entering the site and not just stopping/parking. https://ibb.co/RBwyM2K

Thanks for the help by the way guys.
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ostell
post Sun, 19 Jan 2020 - 22:22
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The last paragraph about the parking space does you no justice. Your friend had a space allocated to the apartment and therefore was using this facility. There was therefore no need for yet another contract to park
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itsmeyou
post Mon, 20 Jan 2020 - 03:28
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I'm a little confused by your comment, they aren't already using the parking space facility as it was taken away from them. Should I remove the last paragraph then?

Are you asking why should they need to be on a database if the space is already in their contract?

If so I believe the reason for ANPR is that football supporters may park in those spaces without it.
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 20 Jan 2020 - 08:57
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Yes. They already had a contract to use the space, so dont need to see, read and accept ANOTHER contract in order to use it! The sign cannot possibly offer anything.
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itsmeyou
post Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 01:49
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The second paragraph now reads;

My friend, as a part of their tenancy agreement, are given a parking space on site, as such there is no need for them, or myself with their permission to use said space, to enter a second contract for using the parking space on site.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 09:02
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'Is', not 'are' given, but I'd use 'is entitled to the use of a parking space on site'.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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itsmeyou
post Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 15:41
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Ah ok will make those changes and send it.

I like your PCN track record.
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