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Newlyn bailiff have clamped & sized my car on previous owners debt
Dandd
post Sat, 29 Sep 2018 - 17:09
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My car was clamped and taken away on residential parking by Newlyn bailiff. I saw him driving round the parking but didn't realised he clamped my car. Came to terms what's happening when saw the recovery track lifting my car. Got the key and rushed outside asking what's happening and the bailiff asked if I'm mister X which I'm not, then he told me that there are 4 court orders for parking tickets against my car and took it away. I believe mr. X is the previous owner.
He refused to give me any information nor documents as I'm not Mr. X
Now, I bought the car on auction about 3 weeks ago without documents. Still waiting the V5 to come on my name as it takes up to 6 weeks. Also, I submitted sorn application to DVLA because can't tax the car. However everything is pending as they have to run their checks for new V5.
I contacted the auction house and was informed that this car has been already seized because of the debs of the previous owner, sold on auction to me and therefore the creditors must be satisfied.

It appears that the car has been seized twice now for the same debt which belongs to the previous owner but paid already by myself as unknowingly bought the vehicle sold in behalf of the previous bailiffs.

What shall I do?

Have very limited time to act as the car was seized 2 days ago and have 7 days in total to claim.


Any advice much appreciated.

This post has been edited by Dandd: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 - 17:13
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post Sat, 29 Sep 2018 - 17:09
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Dandd
post Sun, 30 Sep 2018 - 14:36
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QUOTE (ford poplar @ Sun, 30 Sep 2018 - 15:25) *
IMO the removing Bailiff did not believe you were not the previous owner, who may be just hiding the vehicle in a convenient car park to avoid detection; why did you not attempt to prove your ID with photo ID?
V5c is not proof of ownership



Fair point. I was very keen to prove that I'm not Mr. X but the bailiff wasn't interested at all to see any evidences. He just asked me to see the auction invoice which I didn't have with me at the time. It was at home.
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Neil B
post Sun, 30 Sep 2018 - 16:26
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QUOTE (Enceladus @ Sun, 30 Sep 2018 - 12:34) *
I for one fail to understand what relevance the VED status of the vehicle has to this, your car hasn't been towed by or on behalf of the DVLA?

I don't think anyone suggested it had.

I was simply curious as to why the OP felt they could not tax the vehicle when V62 says they could have.
As for the SORN, I also mentioned that I have doubts whether a 'private' car park, having no restrictions and hence probably
accessible to the public is an acceptable SORN site.

Now it seems the OP may also be falling foul of 'continuous insurance' (irrespective of location) regulations.

Oddly, I felt I should mention both, since, apart from the immediate situation, the OP may be laying themselves
open to, near future, DVLA penalties.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Sun, 30 Sep 2018 - 21:33
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So the auction house were authorised to sell the vehicle, therefore there was no lien on it, it was debt free and you obtained full title.

The car as such is not the issue.

However, you do not know the nature of the previous debt and it appears that the or a previous owner was indebted to an authority(ies).

The car has been clamped because the enforcement agent believed it was still owned by whoever was indebted.

There is no formal record at DVLA to the contrary.

You have presented proof to them that it isn't. (I would also suggest a letter from the auction house would not go amiss or at least a copy of their correspondence with DVLA).

If your account is correct, then your bill of sale from the auction house should be all that's required providing you are not one of the previous owners and selling/buying is but a revolving door to throw people off the scent.
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Dandd
post Mon, 1 Oct 2018 - 11:21
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Good afternoon everyone,


this morning the following email arrive from Newlyn:


''Newlyn PLC reviewed your claim on controlled goods for and on behalf of our client, the creditor, as per our agreement with them to handle these matters and are satisfied that the information and documentation you have provided is sufficient to show that you acquired clear title of the goods, in good faith, for valuable consideration and without notice of the Warrant of Control.

The goods were seized in accordance with the Warrant of Control issued to Newlyn PLC by our client. Under Paragraphs 4 and 5 of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 the property belonging to a named debtor becomes bound to them. This prevents them from being able to sell or dispose of any of their belongings once a Warrant of Control is issued. However in light of the information and documentation you have provided the goods have been authorised for release from control, please contact the storage facility where it is being held to arrange collection:

XXXXXXXX Ltd – phone number xxxxxxxx

The goods must be collected within three working days of the date of this email, £40.00 per day storage fees will be charged for any time over this period. Collection of the goods brings an end to your claim on controlled goods. ''


Now, I'm quite happy that Newlyn released the car but very unhappy by the fact that I have to collect it and by the massive distress they have caused by their actions.

The car has been declared SORN and therefore can't be driven without road tax. To get road tax, I need the V5 which I still don't have from DVLA.

I need the car delived back from where they seized it. Is this unrealistic to claim ?

Your advice will be very much appreciated.

This post has been edited by Dandd: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 - 17:46
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hcandersen
post Mon, 1 Oct 2018 - 11:35
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Tell them to deliver to you, and do it in writing. Also phone if you wish.

You accept their apology and acknowledgement that at the time they removed the vehicle there was no legal power allowing them to do so.

Whether this was their error or their client's you do not know. What is clear however, is that the duty to deliver the goods lies with them, you are under no obligation to rearrange your life to collect the vehicle.

By return you expect them to contact you to arrange a convenient time to deliver the car to where it was removed.

Hugs.
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Enceladus
post Mon, 1 Oct 2018 - 15:33
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Did they tell you the name of the Council?
If not, I suggest you ask them again. Now they've admitted that you have good title to the car then I would imagine it's unreasonable of them to refuse to disclose their client.
It's just in case they continue to be tiresome. Your recourse to recover your expenses, if you incur any to get the car back, would be the Council as principals. And also if it comes to a complaint about the bailiff's actions.
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Bailiff Advice
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 08:18
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QUOTE (Dandd @ Mon, 1 Oct 2018 - 12:21) *
Good afternoon everyone,

This morning the following email arrive from Newlyn:


''Newlyn PLC reviewed your claim on controlled goods for and on behalf of our client, the creditor, as per our agreement with them to handle these matters and are satisfied that the information and documentation you have provided is sufficient to show that you acquired clear title of the goods, in good faith, for valuable consideration and without notice of the Warrant of Control.

The goods were seized in accordance with the Warrant of Control issued to Newlyn PLC by our client. Under Paragraphs 4 and 5 of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 the property belonging to a named debtor becomes bound to them. This prevents them from being able to sell or dispose of any of their belongings once a Warrant of Control is issued. However in light of the information and documentation you have provided the goods have been authorised for release from control, please contact the storage facility where it is being held to arrange collection:

XXXXXXXX Ltd – phone number xxxxxxxx

The goods must be collected within three working days of the date of this email, £40.00 per day storage fees will be charged for any time over this period. Collection of the goods brings an end to your claim on controlled goods. ''



For those viewing this thread, I have been speaking with the OP regarding this matter and as difficult as it is to understand, Newlyn are in fact correct in their instance that the vehicle must be collected from their vehicle pound as opposed to them returning it back to where it had been removed from.

In almost all similar cases, if a 'third party' has their vehicle taken for the previous owners debt, the OP would be required to make what is a commonly referred to as an 'Interpleader' Claim (known also as a 'Part 85' claim). The reference to 85 comes from the legislation being Part 85 of the Civil Procedure Rules.

I won't go into too much detail on here about 'Part 85' claims suffice to say; that if the local authority accept the claim, (which effectively, is what has happened here)
then according the part 85 (6)(b) of CPR, 'the enforcement agent must, as soon as reasonably practical, make the goods available for collection by the claimant if they have been removed from where they were found'

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure...-executed-goods

In this particular case (which thankfully, is very rare), the OP cannot drive the vehicle as DVLA are unable to accept his application for road fund licence for approx 2 weeks. It may be the case that Newlyn will be willing to use their discretion in this particular matter. We will have to wait and see.

http://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk

This post has been edited by Bailiff Advice: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 08:52
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hcandersen
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 08:57
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Very useful link.

But if I may ask, surely this is predicated on there being an enforceable warrant against the owner of the vehicle in the first instance which according to the OP was not the case. They are saying that the auction house were advised that the vehicle could be sold with free title, therefore no warrant existed against the OP. Surely, no warrant is not the same as a contested warrant.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 08:58
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Enceladus
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 10:01
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 09:57) *
Very useful link.

But if I may ask, surely this is predicated on there being an enforceable warrant against the owner of the vehicle in the first instance which according to the OP was not the case. They are saying that the auction house were advised that the vehicle could be sold with free title, therefore no warrant existed against the OP. Surely, no warrant is not the same as a contested warrant.

We don't know why the car was seized and sent to auction in the first place. Or the name of the Enforcement Agents.
The car was subsequently sold at auction to the OP but the new V5c is still in process.
Newlyn apparently have active warrants on behalf of a, as yet unknown, Council for unpaid penalty charges issued against the original owner. The sale at auction wouldn't have cancelled these.
Newlyn "found" the car and seized and removed it, presumably on the premise that it was still the property of the original owner. And apparently unaware that some other Enforcement Agent had got there first.

So the OP is not contesting any warrant. He is trying to recover property which is supposed to have been seized from somebody else, but where the OP is in fact the lawful owner.

However I smell a large rat. The vehicle was apparently removed immediately rather than clamped. I wonder did Newlyn and their principals recheck the RK details with the DVLA before seizing the vehicle? Since the vehicle was found elsewhere than the address on the warrants, it seems to me that the LGO would say they should have. And is it really a matter of chance that the vehicle was "found" in a carpark belonging to a block of flats where the OP's GF lives? Or perhaps Newlyn knew where to look for it?

This post has been edited by Enceladus: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 10:27
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Earl Purple
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 10:02
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If you are unable to actually drive the vehicle off the site then you can get a recovery truck to remove it, I guess.

From what I read though did they seize the vehicle from private property, because if they did that is unlawful? And if it isn't private property then it cannot be SORN'ed there.
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Atrixblue.-MFR-.
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 10:29
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QUOTE (Earl Purple @ Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 11:02) *
If you are unable to actually drive the vehicle off the site then you can get a recovery truck to remove it, I guess.

From what I read though did they seize the vehicle from private property, because if they did that is unlawful? And if it isn't private property then it cannot be SORN'ed there.

From what I gather its a "private" owned residential carpark that has no gate to prevent general access therefore its a publically accessable space and the RTA '88 applies therefore the enforcement agent who had unfettered access was on the land legally and could execute the lift legally what he didn't do legally was his due diligence in investigating ownership.

OP the car cannot be SORN there no more, the DVLA can and will clamp it or remove it. put it on private land that is gated, and truly private.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 10:46
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That there is no warrant against the OP appears to be common ground.

IMO,
There was no legal basis for its removal. Presumption is the mother of all c**k-ups!

The agent was not acting under the authority of a warrant against the OP or under the lawful instructions of a creditor upon which the CPR quote seems to be predicated.

Return my b****y car you eejits!
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Slapdash
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 10:59
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QUOTE
OP the car cannot be SORN there no more, the DVLA can and will clamp it or remove it. put it on private land that is gated, and truly private.


Correct me if I am wrong but

It depends on whether it is public road. If it is not maintained at public expense it is not a public road.

If it is a public place (even though private property) it could potentially need insurance.
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Neil B
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 11:02
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QUOTE (Slapdash @ Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 11:59) *
QUOTE
OP the car cannot be SORN there no more, the DVLA can and will clamp it or remove it. put it on private land that is gated, and truly private.


Correct me if I am wrong but

It depends on whether it is public road. If it is not maintained at public expense it is not a public road.

If it is a public place (even though private property) it could potentially need insurance.

I said both earlier.
Got told it was irrelevant and got ignored by OP.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Enceladus
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 11:56
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 12:02) *
QUOTE (Slapdash @ Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 11:59) *
QUOTE
OP the car cannot be SORN there no more, the DVLA can and will clamp it or remove it. put it on private land that is gated, and truly private.


Correct me if I am wrong but

It depends on whether it is public road. If it is not maintained at public expense it is not a public road.

If it is a public place (even though private property) it could potentially need insurance.

I said both earlier.
Got told it was irrelevant and got ignored by OP.

It's relevant in terms of where to store the car when it is returned.
It's irrelevant to the actions required to recover the vehicle from Newlyn. And to avoid the threatened storage charges.
Until the OP informs otherwise it would appear that Newlyn still have the car and it might well be hundreds of miles away.

Once the vehicle is recovered then the possibilities of complaints about the Enforcement Agents actions, due diligence etc can be considered. And how to go about recovering the trailer expenses if or when it comes to it. Hopefully Newlyn will simply return the car

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Earl Purple
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 13:22
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My driveway also has no gate to prevent the general public parking on it. How is that any different?

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Atrixblue.-MFR-.
post Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 17:07
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QUOTE (Earl Purple @ Wed, 3 Oct 2018 - 14:22) *
My driveway also has no gate to prevent the general public parking on it. How is that any different?

it isn't, I could come and park on it therefore the general public has access as it is not gated (and there has been cases of people parking peoples drives and police not bothering saying its civil matter). But as Owner of the property you could remove my right of access and give me a trespass warning (civil remedy at this stage), if I returned, then you could Call police who would probably give me a criminal trespass warning. If I did it again I would be arrested for criminal trespass.

A residential complex is different if its a secure entrance and exit and gated, then joe blogs couldn't randomly drive into it, then it is not open to the public, as visitors to the complex are there via express permission.
A residential complex that allows any one entry is bound by the land owner rules but it is therefore bound by UK laws. Much like just parking up at asda, any one can enter under landowers rules but if your on your mobile phone and police saw it when they were getting their food, you would end up with points and fine.
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hcandersen
post Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 07:35
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Meanwhile the issue of getting the car..........
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Dandd
post Fri, 5 Oct 2018 - 17:33
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Here is the latest update of the story:

Got the car delivered on recovery truck yesterday which cost me £120 and two visits to the pound which is well hidden in the middle of nowhere. For desert the delivery guy who works for the pound managed to brake the plastic tray protecting the engine underneath the car. There is some oil leak there and I truly hope he didn't damage the oil pan of the engine. Otherwise the whole story is turning in a horror one. Quite appropriate for the upcoming Halloween.

When I can put price on the expenses and missed working hours, I can not price the emotional distress and trauma this accident had caused me. The whole experience is tremendously shocking and surreal.
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Enceladus
post Fri, 5 Oct 2018 - 23:56
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Well I'm glad to hear you have recovered the car. That's positive progress.

Concerning the damage, "the delivery guy who works for the pound.........":
Do you mean the recovery company that you employed damaged the car?
Or do you mean that the company that originally lifted/towed the car for the bailiff damaged it?
Or do you mean the bailiff or their storage agent delivered the car back but charged you £120 and the storage agent's delivery driver damaged it?
And how do you know when or how it occurred?
Might it have been broken when you bought the car..

Have Newlyn confirmed who they were acting for?

I'm thinking that you'll have to make a complaint to the Council concerned and if necessary follow it through to the Ombudsman, to recover your expenses.
And make a parallel complaint to Newlyn. The LGO (Local Government Ombudsman) won't want to consider your case unless all other remedies have been exhausted first.

What make and model car are we talking about? Car plastic under-trays are easily broken. And they don't contain any oil. However lifting the car onto a flatbed truck is not really likely to have broken the tray.

Oil pan gaskets frequently leak as they age. As will the drain plug seal if it's reused when it should have been replaced. And numerous other possibilities higher up the engine. The best thing to do would be to get the car onto a ramp, remove the under-tray and inspect for damage. Sometimes all that's needed is to re-torque the oil-pan bolts.

This post has been edited by Enceladus: Sat, 6 Oct 2018 - 00:04
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