Britannia PCN for exceeding time |
Britannia PCN for exceeding time |
Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 22:50
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 29 Jul 2018 Member No.: 99,136 |
PCN received for 28 mins over a 3hour limit at a retail centre car park. Appealed as registered keeper, rejected, given POPLA code. I would welcome advice on any grounds for POPLA appeal. The letter to keeper was received within the 14 days required for holding the keeper liable for the parking charge. The driver doen not remember seeing any signs about parking timelimits but Britannia have replied tothe appeal with stock close up photo of sign and also an ariel photo of retail complex with location of signs. This car park isn't nearby so I cant easily get photos of positioning or size of Britannia Parking signs. I also saw somewhere that Britannia are beginning to go to court. Is this true? And can they go to court if they do not own the land of the car park?. Any advice welcome. thanks
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Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 22:50
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Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 07:04
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
Have a read of POFA
9 (2) (d) is missing, unless it is elsewhere 9 (2) (f) is not stated correctly 9 (2) (e) is not as prescribed 9 (2) (i) is it there? It's not the same as issued. (hence that 29 days given is incorrect) The signs are not readily visible You have Google maps and street view to look at the location. Query that they have the right to go to court and demand to see the actual contract, a witness statement is not acceptable This post has been edited by ostell: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 07:10 |
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Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 07:34
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,167 Joined: 6 Oct 2012 Member No.: 57,558 |
Britannia have been known to send undated photos of signs to POPLA, as long as you point that out at the right stage that will win. Not the most professional outfit so lots to go at.
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Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 07:53
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,510 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
I also saw somewhere that Britannia are beginning to go to court. Is this true? A handful of cases - not particularly litigious. But they do have 6 years to raise a claim. And can they go to court if they do not own the land of the car park? They don't need to own the land but have sufficient rights granted to them. If they do, then yes they can. -------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 17:48
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 29 Jul 2018 Member No.: 99,136 |
Thanks Ostell. It would be wonderful if Britannias PCN did not meet those POFA9 paragraphs but I am struggling to understand the legal wording of POFA and how the PCN fails.
I have looked up POFA 9(2) (d) which is (d)specify the total amount of those parking charges that are unpaid, as at a time which is— (i)specified in the notice; and (ii)no later than the end of the day before the day on which the notice is either sent by post or, as the case may be, handed to or left at a current address for service for the keeper (see sub-paragraph (4)); Im not sure I understand what the above means...….or how its missing on my PCN ?. The date and time of the parking contravention were on the PCN but I blacked out on my photo upload. 9(2)(e) state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper— (i) to pay the unpaid parking charges; or (ii) if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver; You say not as prescribed, do you mean that the PCN did not state exactly 'Britannia does not know the name or address of the driver'? Its only implied by wording 'if you were not the driver...'? and 9(2)(f) warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given— (i) the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and (ii) the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver, the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid; Again, the wording on my PCN seems to satisfy 9(2)f. If it does not, can you explain where it is incorrect? 9(2)I (i) specify the date on which the notice is sent (where it is sent by post) or given (in any other case). the date and time of the contravention was on the PCN which had an issue date but I obscured it in my uploaded photo. hoping you can clarify. thank you mummyJ |
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Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 19:44
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
9 (2) (d) The wording is just not there Do they say the total amount of the parking charge that remains unpaid ?
9 (2) (e) Where is the invitation for the keeper to pay or the driver to be named? 9 (2) (f) The period is given as 29 days, the date is when the notice is given, ie it is given 2 days after sending not 2 days after the date of issue, 2 seperate things. 9 (2) (i) The issue date is not the same as the date of sending. The date of sending has to be specified. 9 (2) starts with "The notice must—" ie all thos parts must be there and not a variation. |
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Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 17:18
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 29 Jul 2018 Member No.: 99,136 |
Hi Ostell
Thanks again. Trying to choose which ground to appeal to POPLA. There are 5 categories: 1)My car was stolen, 2) I was not improperly parked 3)Amount requested on PCN is not correct 4)I was not driver or registered keeper 5) Other including Extreme circumstances prevented me from parking correctly. Firstly, the extreme circumstances prevented complying with parking correctly option. The overstay was due to restaurant extremely slow service for a very large group. This is what happened but is it likely to win appeal.?? Should it be put forward as just one reason for appeal along with other category?? Non compliance with POFA. My choices for appealing are: 9 (2) (d)The PCN says in large lettering at the top of page: Parking Charge Amount Due £100. Ostell does that not comply with 9(2) (d) 9(2) (e). The PCN does not say we invite the driver or registered keeper to pay the penalty charge. But isn't that implied when the PCN says under 9(2) (b) that the driver is required to pay in full or inform us of the driver name and address 9(2) (f) The PCN says ..You are advised that if, after 29 days from the date given (which is presumed to be the second working day after the Date issued) the parking charge has not been paid in full and we do not know both the name and current address of the driver, we have the right to recover any unpaid part of the parking charge from you as the vehicle's registered keeper. this notice is give to your under paragraph 9(2)(f) of etc etc Ostell, How does this not comply with 9(2)(f) warn the keeper that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given— (i) the amount of the unpaid parking charges specified under paragraph (d) has not been paid in full, and (ii) the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver, the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid; Again, the wording on my PCN seems to satisfy 9(2)f. 9(2)(I) to me this seems the clearest breach of POFA. My PCN does not state the posting date only the issue date. So should I just appeal on (9)(2)(I)?? If any other experienced contributors on this forum have any further advice I would be very grateful. thanks mummyJ |
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Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 21:14
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
The issue date is not the date of posting or sending therefore 9 (2) (f) has been stated incorrectly. The given date is 2 working days after sending
9 (2) (d) where is there a satement of the amount unpaid? 9 (2) is all the statments that MUST be there. You appeal on everything. |
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Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 22:11
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 29 Jul 2018 Member No.: 99,136 |
Thanks Ostell
I see some people quote POFA and go into long detail, paragraphs even pages of why the parking operator PCN is wrongly worded. Do you think this is necessary. Could I just say to be valid, the PCN needs to meet all the requirement of 9(2) and it does not meet 9(2) parts d,e,f and i or should I write each POFA point separately??? eg Dear POPLA 9(2)(f) the PCN wording does not comply because it states that the date given is presumed to be the second working day after the Date issued. POFA says The date of sending has to be specified.The period is given as 29 days, the date is when the notice is given, ie it is given 2 days after sending not 2 days after the date of issue, 2 seperate things. and 9(2)(I) PCN does not state date of posting which is required. Ostell I need to finish appeal tonight! |
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Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 07:33
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Yes, you explain in painstaking details what was required to be stated nad what the opersator has instead put. and how this does not comply. Treat POPLA as small children - theyre poorly trained.
So you write a SECTION about POFA compliance and list each failing there. |
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Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 13:23
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 29 Jul 2018 Member No.: 99,136 |
Hi. My POPLA appeal has been responded to by Britannia with a statement and I have been asked to respond to their comments. Here is their statement. It was accompanied by photos of the signage and redacted contract. I have also removed location and signed dates.
Does their statement answer my appeal questions in which I stated that the car entry/exist time is not same as parking time, and POFA not met and so no keeper liability and signage inadequate, and no warning of what APNR data will be used for, and asked for an unredacted copy of contract with landowner authority. further pictures in next post. |
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Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 13:38
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
So you write back to POPLA pointing out all the statements that you disagree with. For example point out (again!) the fact that the car was not parked when photographed and therefore they have not specified the required period of parking.
Continue on that vein and point out all the items in your appeal that they have not commented on and tell POPLA that you assume that Brittania agree with the statements |
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Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 16:23
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
That's not a great rebuttal
Presuming you gave specific reasons why they didn't meet pofa, their bald statement they do is insufficient. State the operator must prove their notice is compliant. By failing to rebut your claim with evidence otherwise , the operator has failed, and the statement stands. The courts have confirmed that waiting in a car park is not parking, and therefore this notice cannot be pofa compliant. Does the contract show everything you require? |
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Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 17:51
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
The signs may state '£100' but, is it prominent in accordance with Beavis?
-------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 18:12
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 18,751 Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Member No.: 32,130 |
That's not the full evidence pack is it, where are the attachments, photos etc?
This WILL NOT be won by arguing about: - no period of parking shown, or - non POFA PCN (because it is a POFA PCN and POPLA will say that. So there is no point going off on that tangent). QUOTE PCN received for 28 mins over a 3 hour limit at a retail centre car park You need to URGENTLY complain to the Store Managers and the overall Centre Manager/agent that runs the place. Easiest way to get a PCN cancelled and should have been exhausted well before POPLA was tried. This post has been edited by SchoolRunMum: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 18:12 |
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Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 11:05
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 29 Jul 2018 Member No.: 99,136 |
Hi
I couldn't upload anymore as used up my posting allowance. Will need to delete first upload of PCN etc to free up space. Yes, I should have written to restaurant first. will do that now. Meanwhile I need to reply to popla with comments on Britannia statement. From all the posts on this forum I thought that the PCN itself had flaws which we point out to POPLA. Is that not true anymore with the wording Britannia are using on my PCN?? |
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Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 11:17
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 29 Jul 2018 Member No.: 99,136 |
cabbyman, the £100 sign is on the standard Britannia sign that they say is approved by the BPA. The driver doesn't recall any signs and feels the signage was not adequate but if BPA has approved it wont POPLA agree?
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Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 11:47
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 29 Jul 2018 Member No.: 99,136 |
Schoorunmum and Ostell. Sorry about this but I'm confused. Ostell advises that the PCN is non compliant with POFA in his earlier posts and I appealed along those points 9(2) d, e, f and i
But Britannia say it is compliant and Schoolrunmum says it is too. I appreciate both your experience and advice but could you take another look at the PCN to help me understand. I deleted the original PCN and will now post it smaller size for the forum.. thanks Mummyj |
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Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 13:00
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,510 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
What matters is that POPLA will state they are substantively compliant. There's some argument it's not but it's not necessarily a strong case.
This post has been edited by Jlc: Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 13:00 -------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 16:03
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 18,751 Joined: 20 Sep 2009 Member No.: 32,130 |
POPLA will say it's a POFA version so stop focussing on that, honestly, and don't ''write to the restaurant''.
You have NO TIME, you need to phone the Manager or call in person waving the unfair PCN under his/her nose, as you should have done first. |
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