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#Slytherin
Posted on: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 - 13:10


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Update on this situation: the PCN was cancelled and I’m off the hook! It took 3 stages of appeal, and it felt very much like people making up rules as they went along and very much just expecting me to give up and pay up.

The first appeal to the people that issued it was turned down flat, as expected.

The second appeal went to the county council and they replied (abridged version with abbreviations and redacted waffle):

“The Representation….. has been considered. However, we are unable to proceed without further evidence… Your vehicle was parked on a cycle lane and within parking legislation, loading and unloading is not permitted on a cycle lane. However, our on-street parking order does allow for this in certain circumstances, such as universal postal providers and where firm evidence of loading and unloading is produced. Please note that loading and unloading is not waiting for a food delivery to be made. You are required to forward evidence of this….. The PCN has been placed on hold until 5/12/19…”
I replied, saying that picking up a ready-to-go order from a restaurant to take to a customer who has ordered it is not “waiting for a food delivery to be made” and there’s no material difference between it and what postal workers and goods delivery drivers do – to make such a distinction is arbitrary and artificial. Just Eat wasted about a week, saying to my request for a detailed breakdown of the times and locations I made deliveries that day “we don’t do that”, then pretending a manager would call me back (which obviously they didn’t). But I had a list of the orders I completed that day with just order numbers and the date (not times or locations) and I submitted that as a sort of best-I-can-do thing, pointing out that it showed I’d done 26 orders that day, that each order takes approximately half an hour to complete, therefore given the opening hours of the restaurants it’s highly unlikely that I did anything else that day than carry out orders, back to back, with no breaks and thus, there’s nothing else I could have been doing at the time of the PCN other than fulfilling an order.

That got a request for more evidence:

“The Representation you made in respect of the PCN…. has been considered by LCC…. However we are unable to proceed without further evidence…. Loading and unloading must be seen as continuous [funny, they didn’t mention this before] and our referral to food collection means not to wait for a food order to be made, but that the order is ready for collection to minimize the time that you are occupying the cycle lane [funny, why didn’t they say that the first time?]. We will accept evidence providing that it shows that you were collecting an order from Burger King at this time, however, your evidence only shows money earned during that day and is not conclusive that you were loading and unloading. Please provide evidence…. Etc”



I replied:

Further to your communication regarding the PCN with the reference number above, the notice states that “our referral to food collection means not to wait for a food order to be made, but that the order is ready for collection.”

First, I would point out that the entire point of a fast food delivery service is that the restaurant prepares the order when they receive it, so that it’s ready for collection on arrival of the courier, for speedy delivery to the customer. However, factors beyond the couriers’ control can affect whether this happens in every instance – I have no control nor power to predict, for example, whether any restaurant has sufficient staff on any day, to process orders as per the policy, nor whether restaurant staff accord priority to walk-in customers or the prepaid online orders as they ought to, per company policy. Neither is it the fault of the courier if, when attempting to park legally in the loading bay, the control room of the shopping centre is not manned and so there is nobody to raise the barrier. This leaves the courier with no option but to park wherever they can nearby – the only alternative is to simply fail to carry out the order, and thus risk one’s livelihood.

Second, my evidence is rejected on the grounds that “it is not conclusive that you were loading”. It’s my understanding that “conclusive” evidence is required for proving matters beyond reasonable doubt, as in criminal cases. However, alleged parking contraventions are a civil issue, and thus the standard of proof is on the balance of probabilities.

Third, you state that the evidence “only shows money earned during that day”, but this is incorrect and suggests that it was not properly considered together with my representations, before giving your response. The evidence shows that during that day I completed a large number of orders which, as I previously explained, take an average of half an hour per order: a courier receives an order on their phone, drives to the restaurant (10 to 15 minutes depending on location and traffic), picks it up (5 to 10 minutes, depending on distance parked from the door and number of other couriers waiting in line) and drives to the customer (5 to 15 minutes, depending on traffic and location).

Thus, the evidence I previously submitted shows that throughout the entire day and evening of the 7th September, I was collecting and delivering food orders, such that there would not have been time for any break or pause, and so on balance of probability it is highly unlikely that I would have been parked at the time of the PCN for any other purpose than loading. One should not be expected to give “conclusive proof” of a simple fact that can be rationally deduced with no specialist knowledge required.

The majority of restaurants that use the Just Eat network do not retain any records of past orders, certainly not cross-referenced with the names of particular customers or couriers. The network uses a great many individual couriers who work on a self-employed basis, and orders can be reassigned even while a courier is en route to collect it, so to record this information would place an unrealistic burden on restaurant staff as well as the GDPR implications. I have already advised you that I attempted to obtain more detailed evidence from Just Eat (who is in fact more like an agent than a direct employer), but it was not available.

Thus, the evidence you ask for is unfair and unreasonable as it would be, in most instances, impossible for anyone to obtain. As also your reason for rejecting the evidence provided is unfair.

However, it happens that Burger King, uniquely of the restaurants on the Lincoln networks, asks couriers to sign for their orders on collection, on a single sheet used for all couriers on all the different networks (Just Eat, Deliveroo, Uber Eats, etc) used by the franchise. The form records the order number, date and time that it was placed in the thermal cupboard awaiting collection, the restaurant staff who prepared it and the courier who collected it. I have gone to great lengths to obtain a copy of the sheet from the 7th September which includes the order I was collecting at the time of the PCN. You may see highlighted on it that order 4355 was placed in the thermal cupboard at 14.20 on 7/9/2019 by Lauren, and later I collected it, after I had managed to get to the restaurant through the Saturday traffic, attempted unsuccessfully to park in the loading bay, been forced to look elsewhere (which involved driving up Bank Street, back out onto Silver Street and down Free School Lane, unsuccessfully looking for alternative parking), walked through the shopping centre to the restaurant entrance and waited for a member of staff to be free to pass me the order from the thermal cupboard at approximately 14.45.

You may cross-reference this order number with the last 4 digits of the orders on my pay advice I provided in a previous correspondence, to verify that this was indeed me, although as you see surnames are not included on the restaurant’s tracker form. The scrap paper attached to the form is what I used to write the details for the member of staff to know which sheet from their archives I needed them to copy for me, and as you can see it is written on a piece of receipt paper, with a Burger King promotional offer printed on the back, as this was all that was available at the time, both myself and the restaurant staff being very busy.

I feel that I have proven on the balance of probability that I was collecting pre-prepared food from Burger King at the time of the PCN and that at the time, I could not have been reasonably expected to act any differently than I did, without jeopardising my livelihood. I feel that it would be grossly unfair to penalise me when it was solely due to the failure of the shopping centre’s control room to respond to the intercom and raise the barrier, that I was forced to park on the cycle track due to the unavailability of alternative parking within reasonable distance.

I await your response in due course.


They replied to that saying that they were pleased to inform me that the PCN/NTO had been cancelled (I highly doubt they were, but I certainly was lol)

But look - more rules suddenly appeared!

"Please be advised that future PCNs may not be treated in the same manner. Loading and unloading must be witnessed [this wasn't mentioned before? if it had been, I could've provided a witness easily!]. Please be aware that loading and unloading is permitted ona double or single yellow line providing that it is seen as continuous and the item is ready to load at the time [so if it's supposed to be, and you're expecting it to be, but due to errors at the store or incompetence of their staff, if it isn't, you get a PCN??]. An officer is required to observe the vehicle for 5 minutes prior to issuing a PCN [funny - the more cheerful traffic wardens all tell me it's 10 minutes, but 5 minutes conveniently gets their jobsworth off the hook who slapped me with a PCN after 6 minutes of parking!!]."

All's well that ends well though!
  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #1540359 · Replies: 36 · Views: 1,499

#Slytherin
Posted on: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 - 14:09


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Member No.: 106,088


Yeah I think I might just have to throw myself on their mercy lol

It does seem unfair and rather heavy handed and jobsworthy, when I was there for literally 6 minutes and not obstructing anyone. Especially as I did try to park legally but was prevented from doing so, and had no choice cos I was on a job.
  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #1526279 · Replies: 36 · Views: 1,499

#Slytherin
Posted on: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 - 16:57


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Perhaps the signs being relevant for only moving traffic (including pedestrians) is the key bit of info -- and then the London case where again, it seems you can't use that for parking enforcement. Teasing it out, that's looking to me like the main thing?

  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #1524484 · Replies: 36 · Views: 1,499

#Slytherin
Posted on: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 22:11


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Member No.: 106,088


So the deadline to make representations is coming up and I'm still not much clearer on this :/

Should I just go for mitigating circs and explain how I had tried to park in the loading bay, intercom had no reply, couldn't get past the barrier, had a job to do, parked without obstructing cos everyone could easily get round, was only there 6 minutes, sorry sir I won't do it again, etc, and hope for the best??

  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #1524032 · Replies: 36 · Views: 1,499

#Slytherin
Posted on: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 22:25


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Member No.: 106,088


QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 14:54) *
Good. Not a carriageway. The blue signs in place can only relate to moving traffic according to TSRGDs 2016.

See the notation under Schedule 3 :-

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/3/made

Mick


Sorry, my brain is slow today - what does that *mean* in terms of my situation?
  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #1522866 · Replies: 36 · Views: 1,499

#Slytherin
Posted on: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 13:01


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Member No.: 106,088


So I just got this email from the council....

I refer to your enquiry regarding the cyclelane in Saltergate, Lincoln.

Unless on the carriageway a Traffic Regulation Order (TRO) is not required to implement a cyclelane.

The cyclelane in Saltergate is not within the carriageway and was purpose built many years ago. No TRO was required and I am sorry the Council does not currently hold any other paperwork or design plans relating to the cyclelane.

I am sorry I cannot be of more help in this matter.

David Clark
Traffic Orders Manager
Place Directorate
Lincolnshire County Council
  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #1522697 · Replies: 36 · Views: 1,499

#Slytherin
Posted on: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 22:35


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Member No.: 106,088


QUOTE
The important bit is RTA 1988 S21 but I think it would still need a TRO to enforce or at least create the track ?
A call to the council TRO section could be useful for OP in the morning
https://www.lincolnshire.gov.uk/transport-a...s/35415.article


I did call them this morning, said so in the first post smile.gif
My thing I have a kind of hunch on is that the (alleged?) cycle track is on the footway and not at road level, and I think that makes a difference as to its enforceability....
  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #1521319 · Replies: 36 · Views: 1,499

#Slytherin
Posted on: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 20:34


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Joined: 9 Oct 2019
Member No.: 106,088


QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 20:52) *
The council and the adjudicator could well have got that wrong. The sign is schedule 23 part 2 item 29 (959) it signs a route for pedestrians and cycles only and is an offence under the RTA 1988 s21 and is enforceable under TMA 2004


Actually I'm looking at The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 and there isn't a schedule 23, it only goes up to 19... are you talking about a different set of regs?

But also I've found something that says where the cycle track is not on the same level as the carriageway, but a footway cycle track, it's "advisory" and not mandatory and can't be enforced? The source I found is based in Northern Ireland though, so I'm trying to find if this applies in England as well...

In any case, none of those regs are what the letter quotes....

  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #1521275 · Replies: 36 · Views: 1,499

#Slytherin
Posted on: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 20:08


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Group: Members
Posts: 16
Joined: 9 Oct 2019
Member No.: 106,088


QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 20:52) *
The council and the adjudicator could well have got that wrong. The sign is schedule 23 part 2 item 29 (959) it signs a route for pedestrians and cycles only and is an offence under the RTA 1988 s21 and is enforceable under TMA 2004


Oh... so you're saying I'd be better off appealing on "other" grounds and describing the extentuating circumstances, hoping they'll be merciful?
  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #1521271 · Replies: 36 · Views: 1,499

#Slytherin
Posted on: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 19:44


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Member No.: 106,088


QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 20:34) *
QUOTE (#Slytherin @ Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 20:30) *
That is helpful, thank you. So would that be the precedural impropriety box I'd tick then, as grounds for appealing?

No, the alleged contravention did not occur. Post a draft on here for review before sending it to the council.


Cool, thanks. Incidentally, the letter I have from them (the NTO) doesn't mention any regulations or whatever later than 2007, while the appeal you posted above quotes 2016 regs. Have they just carried on using an old template and not bothered to update it when new legs/regs came in, I wonder??
  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #1521264 · Replies: 36 · Views: 1,499

#Slytherin
Posted on: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 19:30


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Group: Members
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Member No.: 106,088


QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 20:18) *
This one any use?
Parking in a cycle lane-----problems with the contravention

2180259732

The Penalty Charge Notice was issued for the contravention of parking wholly or partly on a cycle track of lane.

Following an adjournment the local authority has referred me to the road markings and signs authorised by Schedule 9 of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016. I have also seen Department for Transport Circular 01/2016 version 2 issued in May 2016 soon after the 2016 Regulations were implemented. Paragraph 3.48 confirms that no traffic order is required for mandatory with flow cycle lane.

Part 7 of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 refers to the significance of particular signs in Schedule 9.

Regulation 12(2) states that ‘the marking conveys the requirement that a vehicle, other than a pedal cycle must not be driven or ridden in the cycle lane during the cycle lane’s hours of operation ( which may be all the time) ‘

The Penalty Charge Notice was not issued for a moving traffic contravention of driving or riding in a cycle lane. It was issued for parking in a cycle lane. I am not satisfied that the contravention for which the Penalty Charge Notice was issued is prohibited by Regulation 12(2) of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016.

I allow this appeal.
--------------------
From GSV the cycle markings are an issue since there is a no entry 616 sign at the other end of the Lane (with no exceptions). So in order to use the cycle lane a cyclist must break the law. Otherwise the lane markings are the wrong way round.

Mick


That is helpful, thank you. So would that be the precedural impropriety box I'd tick then, as grounds for appealing?

  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #1521257 · Replies: 36 · Views: 1,499

#Slytherin
Posted on: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 19:19


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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 20:00) *
Get and post the council photos, need to see if you were actually on the cycle track or on the footpath.




As you can see if I had gone on the DLY's on the road, I'd have been blocking the traffic flow. Where I was, I wasn't stopping anyone from getting past on either side.
  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #1521252 · Replies: 36 · Views: 1,499

#Slytherin
Posted on: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 19:12


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Member No.: 106,088


QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 20:02) *
I can't help but wonder why you didn't park on double yellow lines, as a courier surely you know you can park on DYL if it is necessary in order to load or unload, especially if engage in business, right?

If you'd been on DYLs, you might have go a PCN anyway but claiming the loading exception is reasonable straightforward providing you have evidence (job sheets or whatever) backing up the claim that you were loading in the course of business.


I was on the DYLs, I was kinda half on the road and half on the path, which they say that side of the path is a cycle track. If you look on the streetview, I was kind of next to that flower planter thing. DYLs on the road, and the path is part cycle track, if you get me? So I was on both?

Edit - ah no, when I look at their photos (just found them), I was more just in front of the painted bike picture. Cos of the traffic flow at the time, I had initially gone to use the loading bay but as I said, no answer to the intercom, so I had to reverse and then just try and stop somewhere with cars coming up behind me and whatever, that's just where I ended up!

Just figuring out how to get the photos from the PDF into JPEG format to put on here.
  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #1521245 · Replies: 36 · Views: 1,499

#Slytherin
Posted on: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 16:53


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 17:36) *
Got a streetview link ??


https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2289711,-0....3312!8i6656

Dunno if that link works?

I was parked sort of just in front of where the bike is painted on the path - plenty of room on both sides of me for bikes to go round, plenty of room on the footpath side for pedestrians, wheelchairs, pushchairs etc, not blocking the traffic flow. All the parking you can see there, the bays, is disabled only. If you swivel round you can see the barrier in front of the loading bay -- to get to the restaurant I have to into there, then it's a short walk along the river front and into the shopping centre.
  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #1521216 · Replies: 36 · Views: 1,499

#Slytherin
Posted on: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 16:16


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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 16:52) *
I would follow two paths, (1) submit formal reps to the NtO, and if they refuse and don't re-offer the discount, take them to adjudication, and (2) make a fuss with Deliveroo about this location. They are in a much more powerful position to put pressure on somebody to make sure you can get into the loading bay. You really do need to do (2) because the situation will not improve, and you could get whalloped again.


Hi - thanks for replying. I have done the second one -- all the couriers complain about it but they don't seem to be doing anything.

I'm not sure what grounds to go with in my formal reps.... shall I just tick the "other grounds" box and explain the extenuating circs? And should I wait to see if there is a TRO to make the cycle track actually a legal thing?
  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #1521206 · Replies: 36 · Views: 1,499

#Slytherin
Posted on: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 15:28


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Group: Members
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Hi there, I'm new here -- I've been doing what I can to help myself as I thought being a law student I ought to be able to figure this out, but I'm running against a few brick walls and hoped I could get some help here.

Basically I work as a courier for Deliveroo and there's a branch of Burger King in Lincoln that's inside a shopping centre which itself is inside a large pedestrianized zone. For some reason, customers keep ordering from that branch rather than the one not far away that has its own free car park!! For the shopping centre there's a loading bay you can use, but it has a barrier across it and sometimes the intercom isn't manned and you can't get it raised. There's no legal parking (other than for disabled people) within reasonable loading distance of the centre.

The day I got this parking ticket, I had tried getting into the loading bay but got no answer on the intercom. We're timed and pressured as couriers, so I felt like I had no choice but to park on the path nearby, which is split into footpath and cycle track. I left the car with the windows open and my Deliveroo branded spare bags and jacket were on the front seat in clear view -- it couldn't really have been any clearer that I was a courier, loading, and would be back any minute. I was gone literally 6 minutes (it was timed on my courier app), and when i got back, I saw a traffic warden hurriedly walking away from the car and a ticket was on it. I mean he must have been literally waiting to pounce the second I was gone, as I was barely gone long enough to even fill in the ticket!!

I appealed against it informally, saying that I was loading, had sought to park more appropriately but couldn't get anyone to answer to lift the barrier, how I hadn't been obstructing anyone -- neither pedestrians, cyclists nor motorists -- from being able to get round, which their own photos showed. I pointed out that it had been obvious that it was a courier's car and that I was gone only 6 minutes. They replied saying they appreicate and sympathise with the difficulties and pressures I was under, but that nonetheless "alternative parking must be sought" and I should pay the fine anyway. I felt annoyed, because I'd made it clear that I *had* sought it, but it wasn't available.

So I waited for the NTO and here it is (attached), arrived in the post today. I haven't responded to it yet, although I did call the council earlier to ask for a copy of the TRO creating the cycle track, to double check if it really is legally one, because if not then I was just parked on a pavement, which isn't illegal and even less so when I was loading for a very short time (as far as I understand it).

Any ideas as to how I should approach this?
  Forum: Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalis... · Post Preview: #1521192 · Replies: 36 · Views: 1,499


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