Bus Lane PCN, Entered approaching junction to turn left |
Bus Lane PCN, Entered approaching junction to turn left |
Fri, 18 May 2018 - 09:38
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 7 Nov 2010 Member No.: 41,913 |
Hi
I received this PCN from Islington council - dated 9/5/18. I emailed them on 10/5/18 for video/photo evidence and received this reply: " Thank you for your email which has been received by Islington Parking Services. Our target deadline for a response is 1 Month. On occasions we do get more enquiries than usual and it takes longer for us to reply. In the unlikely event you have not heard from us within 1 month, please telephone 020 7527 2000, quoting the Penalty Charge Notice (Parking Ticket) number. We will ensure you are not disadvantaged by the wait. If you have not provided a Parking Ticket number OR a VRN (we need both of these if possible), please resend your email with this information as we will be unable to process your enquiry without this. Thank you Islington Parking Services PO Box 2019 Pershore WR10 9BN " I am thinking of appealing using Alan Kornbluth defence - no advantage recieved or disruption caused. I simply moved into lane early as turning left - but if i wait for video evidence I'll go over 14 day response time. Any advice about this or general points gratefully recieved. Thanks. |
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Fri, 18 May 2018 - 09:38
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Fri, 18 May 2018 - 09:43
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,265 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
The PCN is tosh, in the same ways as the 'Crap O' case, somewhere on here.
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Fri, 18 May 2018 - 09:56
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41 Joined: 9 Sep 2011 Member No.: 49,518 |
My similar case
I tried a de minimis argument in the first instance but the helpful chaps on here highlighted some alarming issues with regards to the PCN which was sadly cancelled due to a procedural error on their part. I was very much looking to going before an adjudicator to highlight these issues. This post has been edited by CraPo: Fri, 18 May 2018 - 10:03 |
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Wed, 23 May 2018 - 10:06
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 7 Nov 2010 Member No.: 41,913 |
Thanks all.
I have put in an appeal gleaning all info from CraPo citing de minimis , 20m grace period and legally questionable PCN format. No doubt it will take a while but I'll keep the forum posted with any updates. |
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Wed, 23 May 2018 - 10:24
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#5
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
I would concentrate on the PCN flaws ----the distance looks in excess of 20 metres and you might have gained advantage by "undertaking" the lorry. Only the video will confirm.
Mick |
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Wed, 23 May 2018 - 11:39
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
We've seen this one - it's a very short separately signed lane - basically just the bus stop. The truck would have cleared I think.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5576092,-0....3312!8i6656 |
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Wed, 23 May 2018 - 12:14
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Just made reps for my BiL re one similar to this. You moved to the left after the bus lane road mark I would like to see the video, the photo suggests you had started to move over to the right again
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 13:21
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 7 Nov 2010 Member No.: 41,913 |
Hi all,
I have received a reply to my objection. I'll post the objection email first, then the reply. I also now have the video. Dear Sir / Madam I received this PCN on 10/5/18. Note: On 10/5/18 I tried to inspect online photo and video evidence but the service is not working and having read through online PCN appeal forums it appears this has been case for over a year now. I appeal this PCN on the following various grounds. 1. I cite the "de minimis" defence (Allan Kornbluth -v- City of Salford 2015) that the incursion into the bus lane was trivial i.e. whilst in the bus lane the vehicle caused no obstruction and gained no advantage whilst doing so. The vehicle was only there in preparation of veering left on the way back to our home. 2. On evidence supplied so far the vehicle is not in the bus lane for more than the 20m grace period which I believe is allowed. 4. The PCN misleads and misinforms with regard to rights of challenge, encumbence for potential fines and untrue time limits with regard to statutory regulations. I am not a legal expert so can not give further detail. I am merely citing advice given by the good people on PCN appeal forums who fight these despicable attempts to fleece reasonable drivers alongside those who commit real traffic offences. The right thing to do now would be to cancel this PCN and not waste any tax payer funds on pursuing a fruitless case further. I would finally add that with no detailed photographic evidence and as the PCN was issued on the weekend I cannot determine who was driving the vehicle - myself or my partner who is insured to drive the vehicle also. This may be a defence in itself and if so I appeal on this ground also. I look forward to your reply. Should you choose not to cancel this PCN be in no doubt I will take this all the way to tribunal if I have to. Yours faithfully Date of Issue 28/04/2018 at 13:18 Location of Contravention Junction Road [Zone P] Thank you for your letter regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) which was recently received at this office. The Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) was issued for being in a bus lane I have noted your comments in your appeal of the above PCN. You have raised several points which I will address individually. You state that the incursion in to the bus lane was trivial as the vehicle caused no obstruction and gained no advantage whilst doing so. I can confirm that vehicles are not permitted to enter a bus lane during prescribed hours, where no hours are noted then vehicles are not permitted to enter at any time. You have advised the vehicle was not in the bus lane for more than the 20 meter grace period allowed. For clarity, the rule only applies when the vehicle had a valid reason for being in the bus lane in the first place, such as dropping off / picking up a passenger, or moving out of a designated bay which is situated within the bus lane itself. In such instances, the driver then has 20 metres in order to move out of the bus lane and move into the right hand lane. Having viewed the footage, I am not satisfied that the 20 metre rule has any bearing on this PCN, as I see no reason why your vehicle was in the bus lane on this occasion. Therefore, you should have observed and complied with the bus lane signage at the start of the lane and refrained from entering the lane. You believe that the PCN misleads and misinforms with regard to rights of challenge, potential fines and time limits with regards to statutory regulations. I am however satisfied that the information presented on the PCN with regards to these things are correct and meet all regulatory requirements. I have included the photographs of the contravention below and attached a copy of the CCTV footage for your reference. Finally, you advise that you cannot determine who was driving the vehicle which you feel may be grounds to appeal. Unfortunately, the responsibility for the PCN lies with the legal owner of the vehicle not the person who was driving at the time. Based on the information available to me I am satisfied that the vehicle entered the bus lane in contravention with the restrictions in place, and that the PCN was therefore issued correctly. As the PCN was issued correctly, payment is now due. I have decided that we can accept the discounted amount of £65.00 provided we receive that before 30 June 2018. Please bear in mind that on that date the charge will increase to £130.00. Alternatively, if you wish to continue to contest the matter, there is no need to respond to this letter. We will then be obliged to send an Enforcement Notice to the person legally responsible for the vehicle. This will list the statutory grounds for challenging the PCN and provide further information on what options remain. If, once the Enforcement Notice has been issued, formal representations are made against the ticket and are rejected we will provide details on how to take the matter to an independent Environment and Traffic Adjudicator. You can make a credit or debit card payment on - 020 7527 2000 - at any time. You can also pay on line at www.islington.gov.uk. If you prefer to pay by cheque, please make it payable to LB Islington and send it to the above address. Please write the PCN number on the back of the cheque. You may also send postal orders (quoting the PCN number). Yours sincerely This post has been edited by truthwillout: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 13:18 |
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Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 13:31
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 7 Nov 2010 Member No.: 41,913 |
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Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 13:40
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
I would be arguing that you entered the left lane at the end of the bus line white line and then started to pull out when you realised the bus lane continued after the junction. There was not however time to complete this manoeuvre
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 12 Jun 2018 - 20:06
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 7 Nov 2010 Member No.: 41,913 |
Thanks.
I agree, looking at the video I'm convinced that is what I was actually doing. If experts here think my existing technical defence is more robust then please advise otherwise I'll change my approach to this. If there is more video I suspect it might also show the lorry blocked me easily switching back to the right. |
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Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 17:05
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 7 Nov 2010 Member No.: 41,913 |
I have 4 days to pay or go to NTO owner stage.
Appreciate if anyone can have a quick look again. At this stage I am thinking NTO in the defence that I thought the bus lane had ended - which I am fairly certain I did - and also that the next lane doesn't even look like it is 20m long. It pretty much stops at the bus stop sign. |
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Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 18:02
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
I have 4 days to pay or go to NTO owner stage. Appreciate if anyone can have a quick look again. At this stage I am thinking NTO in the defence that I thought the bus lane had ended - which I am fairly certain I did - and also that the next lane doesn't even look like it is 20m long. It pretty much stops at the bus stop sign. I would fight it on the grounds a stated in an earlier post -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 10:53
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 7 Nov 2010 Member No.: 41,913 |
Hi all
To update this case: I never received an NTO from the council. This was 3 months ago now so I presume they decided not to pursue this. Location (might help searches) Tufnell Park Junction Road bus lane |
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Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 11:14
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 221 Joined: 10 May 2017 Member No.: 91,884 |
Have you checked online to see how much is outstanding against this PCN. I wouldn’t assume that they decided not to pursue it, it could be that they’ve sent a notice and you just haven’t received it.
Have a look online to see the status and current amount outstanding. |
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Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 12:24
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20,914 Joined: 22 Apr 2012 Member No.: 54,455 |
Have you checked online to see how much is outstanding against this PCN. I wouldn’t assume that they decided not to pursue it, it could be that they’ve sent a notice and you just haven’t received it. Have a look online to see the status and current amount outstanding. +1 Never, ever, assume anything with these things ! You need to make checks, because if you ignore you could end up with bailiffs at your door. Have you moved since the incident ? All enforcement documents are sent to the V5 address as it was when the PCN was first issued. |
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