Council PCN - Entering and stopping at box junction, entering and moving slowly across yellow box Options

[Mini Mark]

Hi everyone,

Went to visit one of my mates in hospital 2 weeks ago, traffic was very slow and heavy and last friday have received a PCN - Entering and stopping at junction box when prohibited. Funny thing is that i was actually moving (very slowly, i admit) across yellow box, and i entered when the light was green and moved across while light was green.

Have attached 3 photo's and PCN itself.

Let me know if anyone has any ideas on what to reply to council.

Thank you in advance.

PCN

PCN SCANS
PCN Page 2
PCN Page 3

CCTV

CCTV Picture 1
Picture 2
Picture 3

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[PASTMYBEST]

The PCN is faulty two issues with it i note on page one alone. but critical to any appeal is the video, get and post that

[Mini Mark]

PASTMYBEST - thank you for comments. I will request a video recording, which i suspect will take them all of this week to supply. In the meantime, what did you find wrong with PCN?

[PASTMYBEST]

PASTMYBEST - thank you for comments. I will request a video recording, which i suspect will take them all of this week to supply. In the meantime, what did you find wrong with PCN?

the 14 day period for payment of the discount is wrong it should be date of notice not service, and the issue of a charge certificate is the other way round

[Mini Mark]

So do i just wait for video recording for now or can i use the few inconsistencies/errors mentioned above against council's PCN?

[Incandescent]

If you claim you never stopped, then the video will show that. Unfortunately too many councils just whack in a PCN without studying the video all that closely. They can do this because most people just cough-up so its a nice little earner for them. They can stand a few lost PCNs from appeals as the cash they get is so huge. There are no penalties on them for behaving badly.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 - 09:21

[stamfordman]

PCN says video is online - have you checked?

[Mini Mark]

Yes i have - only 4 pictures, no recording.

[Mini Mark]

PASTMYBEST - Date of notice applies to PCN's served on the vehicle, whereas date of service applies to postal PCN's. Does anyone knows if this is correct?

[PASTMYBEST]

PASTMYBEST - Date of notice applies to PCN's served on the vehicle, whereas date of service applies to postal PCN's. Does anyone knows if this is correct?

Yes me it is not

read the regs

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/schedule/1/enacted

[Mini Mark]

Morning all,

Today i finally got hold of the video recording which shows me slowly entering the yellow box, moving and then stopping for 7 seconds while cars in front are getting in line before moving off again.

[stamfordman]

Today i finally got hold of the video recording which shows me slowly entering the yellow box, moving and then stopping for 7 seconds while cars in front are getting in line before moving off again.

And? 7 secs is well beyond a minimal stop.

Post the video anyway and let's have a look.

[Mini Mark]

Watch Video

Thank you

[stamfordman]

Looks bang to rights to me - stopped beyond de miminis with exit clearly blocked by stationary vehicles. You can of course try appealing on the basis of moving off again fairly soon.

Check with PMB on how strong the PCN faults are.

[PASTMYBEST]

Looks bang to rights to me - stopped beyond de miminis with exit clearly blocked by stationary vehicles. You can of course try appealing on the basis of moving off again fairly soon.

Check with PMB on how strong the PCN faults are.

The error is in my opinion only 50/50 Schedule 1(5) of the act applies. The council state however they may serve the CC at the end of the 28 day period re payment (date of notice)
date of service is two working days later, thus you are deprived of two days in which to decide what to do. Also
Two days before the are allowed the council say they may demand an increased penalty, this must cause prejudice.

as regards the contravention, i see it a little differently to Stamfordman (and no doubt others). Whist the stop was indeed about 7 seconds and on the very edge of de minimis, One
of the cars in front appears to stall prolonging the stop.

One of the usual statements adjudicators make in relation to de minimis, is that a vehicle can stop for a moment when changing gear or because of stalling and this should not be a contravention
I find no difficulty in ascribing the same principal to a car in front

[Mini Mark]

Sorry, what is PMB?

PASTMYBEST - thank you for detailed information. Will try and use "car stalled in front of me" excuse, although knowing cash hungry council will reject that and demand payment.

[Neil B]

as regards the contravention, i see it a little differently to Stamfordman (and no doubt others). Whist the stop was indeed about 7 seconds and on the very edge of de minimis, One
of the cars in front appears to stall prolonging the stop.

One of the usual statements adjudicators make in relation to de minimis, is that a vehicle can stop for a moment when changing gear or because of stalling and this should not be a contravention
I find no difficulty in ascribing the same principal to a car in front

Your observations make perfect sense but I believe adjudicators are influenced by other
factors when considering whether de minimis applies.

Here, entering the box when the preceding vehicle was only half way across and, at that time, itself
had no exit. No amount of stopping could be tolerated.
The period of creeping forward only emphasis that the effective stop, resulting from OP's initial entry
would have been far longer.

You get forgiven for being unlucky, not for being daft in the first instance. imho.

[PASTMYBEST]

Sorry, what is PMB?

PASTMYBEST - thank you for detailed information. Will try and use "car stalled in front of me" excuse, although knowing cash hungry council will reject that and demand payment.

Keep this case for later

216036762A

The Enforcement Authority say that the vehicle came to a stop for 8 seconds and that is sufficient time to prove that the vehicle stopped in the box junction.

The DVD shows the Appellant 's vehicle moving through the box junction following other vehicles and it comes to a complete stop. The issue is how long was the vehicle stopped (stationary) and whether that constituted this contravention. The dvd shows the vehicle stopped at 10 seconds, then move again 3 seconds later and stop and then move again to go out of the box 5 seconds after that. There is no minimum time for a vehicle to become stationary for the contravention to occur, but it has to be more than a few seconds, otherwise it is nominal or de minimis and does not constitute coming to a stop. 7 or 8 seconds can just about be said to be nominal or de minimis, especially as there was a double movement and the total time stopped was less than 10 seconds.

Accordingly, I am not satisfied that the contravention occurred and must allow this appeal