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IN/OUT Hokey Cokey Dance - Brexit, Threads merged x5
Lynnzer
post Thu, 18 Feb 2016 - 11:58
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Emailed to my MP:

Dear Mr Morris.
I am writing to elicit answers on the implications of an exit to the EC, as favoured by some strong minded MP's such as Boris Johnson and Michael Gove.

I give you my own concerns as to the relationship with the EC and would like some feedback as to how you stand on these same issues.

My first point is that if the UK did actually leave the EC what is there to prevent the UK from becoming a member of EFTA to continue a trading relationship with the EC?

With gossip of companies likely to leave their manufacturing plants in the UK (albeit without sufficient evidence to back it up) if we opted to leave the EC, why would an EFTA membership not give assurances that such action wouldn't be necessary?

Nissan, as you know is extremely successful in Washington being Nissan's flagship factory worldwide. Is it likely that they would abandon the UK on Brexit. Is there any positive proof that they would? If there is, have they been considered alongside a potential membership of EFTA? Is there anything at all from Nissan that says either way what their reaction would be to Brexit?

Next is something close to heart for a northern MP. If we were not caught in the trap of EC legislation and could have taken action to subsidise the steel works in Redcar, would we have found ourselves in a situation where not only Redcar is closed but others in Wales are also a victim of the same policy?

How quickly would it be that farming in the UK would stop? We had farming long before the EEC, as it was then, and is it likely that if we left the EC it would all stop?

We know of the internal politics of certain member countries who completely disregard the legislative requirements on farming policy, France. Does that ring a bell?
We pour huge sums of money into farm subsidies (there's that word again. Subsidy, The very thing we couldn't do to assist our steel plants) where the inefficient farms are heavily favoured. See:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/commodi...-of-Europe.html

We also remember when the French burnt our sheep at their ports, refused to take British beef and what did the EC do about that. Answer to that please.

The coastline of our islands are dredged clean of fish. Trawlers operate within casting distance from a competent beach angler. The fishermen come from as far away as Spain and Portugal. The control on fisheries matters has brought the UK's own fishing fleet to a shadow of its former self and destroyed the livelihoods of thousands who are part of the chain.
My question then is this: If we did Brexit, could we take back control of the seas in our Territorial Waters?

Security issues within the ever increasing remit of the EC are questionable.
There is an agenda already made known, of the EC's ambition (nay, intention) to have an EC army.
Could you please explain why such a thing is needed as we are already part of NATO which has a far heavier clout, the USA being a member of it.
Integration of such a diverse army would be at best problematic and at worst completely farcical. Please let me have your thoughts on how a British soldier could find himself being under the control of a Latvian General in a group of mixed ethnic regiments and squadrons with no commonality of ambitions and perhaps even diverse personal interests, be they ethnic of religious.
Is it right that if we allowed Turkey into the EC, as is already planned anyway, then we would have to join together as a European Army to sacrifice our soldiers against a threat to Turkey from, say, Iran? And, to cap it off, what if Israel became a member and found itself under threat from Jordan or Lebanon (who may at some point also be EC members); would we all join with Israel to fight Jordan, or perhaps Palestine?

If a country is already part of NATO would this not be a conflict of interests whereby the NATO executive could just tell us to sod off and do it ourselves as the EC Army?
Take for instance the current situation in Latvia. Link here.
If we had an EC army why would NATO agree to enter into the situation as well since it's an EC "internal affair".

From the impending number of more or less third world countries all lined up for membership of the EC including the very dubiously politically estranged Albania which is still a 3rd world country in terms of political and economic integrity and stability, what can these countries offer the EC that the UK couldn't be party to without membership anyway?
It's obvious that such a country has little to offer but can take an awful lot out of it. How would the UK electorate feel, in your opinion, about heavily subsiding such a country just to increase the membership base?

The Greeks know to their cost that membership of the EC is on an agreed basis that is as solid as quicksand. Take the Shengen Agreement for instance. This gives free access for movement within the EC to member citizens.
It's something we in the UK have problems with anyway as we all know with the immigration problems at Calais, but the Shengen Agreement makes it impossible to prevent control of EC citizens from whichever country they arrive.

That on the face of it is all well and good if the Agreement was equitable to all. It isn't though. Greece has been warned of sanctions for allowing the flood of migrants over its border into other member states. Why? There is no legislative instrument to do this. It's just "convenient at this time" for the EC to break its own rules. The Greek situation is completely out of control and is not a problem that it can solve on its own. Similar problem may well present themselves from Italy as they too are deluged with boat people fleeing Syria. Would it be equitable for the Shengen Agreement they also signed up for to be torn apart?

Why do you think, if you do, that an agreement for the return of our own self limitations on border control won't also be torn apart at some later date when it becomes convenient to the EC executive?

What legitimacy is there to an organisation that has consistently failed to have its accounts accepted; in fact it has never had them properly audited. If there is no transparency on this why would we wish to believe that the organisation is not rife with corruption in some form or other, fiddled expenses and illicit financial transactions?

When will we be able to vote for the non elected commissioners and the Vice President so that we, as a nation, get a say on who runs the ship?
Why should we be at the mercy of appointees instead of having a vote to say who gets a job.

How long do you think it will take for the disbandment of the legislative powers of the UK Parliament where the EC have taken control of the lawmaking powers entirely leaving us as just a government that can only act "on behalf of" the EC?
From Wikipedia: The doctrine of the supremacy (sometimes referred to as primacy) of EU law is a principle that when there is conflict between European law and the law of Member States, European law prevails; Full article here.

Please complete the quiz on the attached link and let me know your result.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics...ade-up-law.html
NB: Worthwhile for everyone to do this. Just to show I'm not a complete dummy I actually got 3 right.

Finally, do you feel British or European?

Thank you in advance of your response.

This post has been edited by Lynnzer: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 - 12:27


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post Thu, 18 Feb 2016 - 11:58
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 18 Feb 2016 - 12:48
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Simple solution to the benefits problem. Any benefits applicable to nationals from other EU countries should be paid and charged to the relevant country
Get the cash by withholding from our payments to the EU. (it works Maggie did it)

I wonder how Poland would then feel about payment of benefit to their nationals. No reason it cant work for the NHS too, and could be reciprocal so who could moan


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Gan
post Thu, 18 Feb 2016 - 13:12
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 18 Feb 2016 - 12:48) *
Simple solution to the benefits problem. Any benefits applicable to nationals from other EU countries should be paid and charged to the relevant country
Get the cash by withholding from our payments to the EU. (it works Maggie did it)

I wonder how Poland would then feel about payment of benefit to their nationals. No reason it cant work for the NHS too, and could be reciprocal so who could moan


+1

If she's turned eighteen, this young lady's going to be voting on our future

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-...room-table.html
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typefish
post Thu, 18 Feb 2016 - 13:44
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How about this for an idea - why can't the EU not legislate particularly niche issues? I remember recently British lorry trailer manufacturers were battling with the EU over the maximum height allowed for trailers - not sure if you folks have noticed but the UK tends to have taller trailers than in Europe...
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Lynnzer
post Thu, 18 Feb 2016 - 14:02
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QUOTE (Gan @ Thu, 18 Feb 2016 - 13:12) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 18 Feb 2016 - 12:48) *
Simple solution to the benefits problem. Any benefits applicable to nationals from other EU countries should be paid and charged to the relevant country
Get the cash by withholding from our payments to the EU. (it works Maggie did it)

I wonder how Poland would then feel about payment of benefit to their nationals. No reason it cant work for the NHS too, and could be reciprocal so who could moan


+1

If she's turned eighteen, this young lady's going to be voting on our future

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-...room-table.html

I guess that's the price of democracy. However would such a person even bother with voting?
The one's who do are those who "always vote Labour, conservative or liberal etc, because my dad did" or those with a bit more knowledge.


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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 18 Feb 2016 - 14:10
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QUOTE (Gan @ Thu, 18 Feb 2016 - 13:12) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 18 Feb 2016 - 12:48) *
Simple solution to the benefits problem. Any benefits applicable to nationals from other EU countries should be paid and charged to the relevant country
Get the cash by withholding from our payments to the EU. (it works Maggie did it)

I wonder how Poland would then feel about payment of benefit to their nationals. No reason it cant work for the NHS too, and could be reciprocal so who could moan


+1

If she's turned eighteen, this young lady's going to be voting on our future

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-...room-table.html



She couldn't spell X


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Churchmouse
post Thu, 18 Feb 2016 - 21:38
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Like with the Scotland vote, the EU referendum would only be the beginning of the withdrawal process. It is impossible to say now what Britain's exact relationship with the EU post-exit would be, so any decision to leave would have to be taken with a certain degree of faith that the process would be effectively managed in our favour. There will be few guarantees...

--Churchmouse
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glasgow_bhoy
post Thu, 18 Feb 2016 - 21:59
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I hate the EU. Its like a big burning money pit. I hate all the working hours nonsense (the 48 hour opt-out is a farce as employers pretty much force everyone to sign it anyway...), I hate the human rights court which seems to favour the likes of prisoners etc.

But I also like the immigration. I see it as a positive thing, and would love to actually see a world free of restricted settlement. I enjoy the speed at which we can now pass through airports in European citys- last year I had holidays/long weekends six times in Europe, and it was a really simple process in comparison to going to the US for instance. I also like the fact that five of those holidays involved using the Euro, so I didn't have to keep changing leftover cash back.

So I'd rather stay in Europe, for now.

Do I feel European? Absolutely not. Do I feel British? Absolutely not.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 18 Feb 2016 - 22:08
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QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Thu, 18 Feb 2016 - 21:59) *
I hate the EU. Its like a big burning money pit. I hate all the working hours nonsense (the 48 hour opt-out is a farce as employers pretty much force everyone to sign it anyway...), I hate the human rights court which seems to favour the likes of prisoners etc.

But I also like the immigration. I see it as a positive thing, and would love to actually see a world free of restricted settlement. I enjoy the speed at which we can now pass through airports in European citys- last year I had holidays/long weekends six times in Europe, and it was a really simple process in comparison to going to the US for instance. I also like the fact that five of those holidays involved using the Euro, so I didn't have to keep changing leftover cash back.

So I'd rather stay in Europe, for now.

Do I feel European? Absolutely not. Do I feel British? Absolutely not.



Like you I feel that first I am of my country, then I may be British but I am not European Free and fair trade is all we ever voted for. Work towards that


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nigelbb
post Thu, 18 Feb 2016 - 22:10
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QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Thu, 18 Feb 2016 - 21:59) *
I hate the EU. Its like a big burning money pit. I hate all the working hours nonsense (the 48 hour opt-out is a farce as employers pretty much force everyone to sign it anyway...), I hate the human rights court which seems to favour the likes of prisoners etc.

You do realise that the European Court of Human Rights has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU don't you? In fact Britain was a signed up to the ECHR about fifteen years before we joined the EU. If we left the EU we would still be subject to rulings of the European Court of Human Rights because we are signatories to the European Convention on Human Rights & members of the Council of Europe.

This post has been edited by nigelbb: Thu, 18 Feb 2016 - 22:11


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DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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glasgow_bhoy
post Thu, 18 Feb 2016 - 22:27
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QUOTE (nigelbb @ Thu, 18 Feb 2016 - 22:10) *
QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Thu, 18 Feb 2016 - 21:59) *
I hate the EU. Its like a big burning money pit. I hate all the working hours nonsense (the 48 hour opt-out is a farce as employers pretty much force everyone to sign it anyway...), I hate the human rights court which seems to favour the likes of prisoners etc.

You do realise that the European Court of Human Rights has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU don't you? In fact Britain was a signed up to the ECHR about fifteen years before we joined the EU. If we left the EU we would still be subject to rulings of the European Court of Human Rights because we are signatories to the European Convention on Human Rights & members of the Council of Europe.

Truth be told I was not aware of that. I knew we hadn't signed up for them both at the same time, but had just assumed the two would be linked. So I've learnt something new this evening.

So I now have another reason to support remaining part of the EU.
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Broadsman
post Fri, 19 Feb 2016 - 14:41
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I have one major question that is holding back my decision.

IF we had a NO vote, would our border be moved back to Dover from Calais?

If so, this would mean all the migrants, for they are not refugees in Calais, could walk onto the ferry and then claim asylum here. This, to me, would create a bigger problem than the European migrants.

I'm all for taking refugees and believe the current system of taking those in camps from Syria and adjoining countries is correct.
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andy_foster
post Fri, 19 Feb 2016 - 14:46
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QUOTE (Broadsman @ Fri, 19 Feb 2016 - 14:41) *
IF we had a NO vote, would our border be moved back to Dover from Calais?


Drugs are bad, m'kay?


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Gan
post Fri, 19 Feb 2016 - 15:39
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Wasn't that clarified recently as an England-France treaty that's independent of the EU ?
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Fredd
post Fri, 19 Feb 2016 - 16:10
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It's hardly a unique arrangement, and isn't dependent on the EU. For example you can clear all US immigration, customs and agriculture checks at Dublin airport due to their mutual agreement, and are treated as a domestic flight on arrival. And no, the US border doesn't magically migrate all the way across the Atlantic to Ireland to allow this to happen. smile.gif


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Lynnzer
post Fri, 19 Feb 2016 - 16:52
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What makes me suspicious about our part in this is that all the other countries say they would really prefer us to stay within the EC.
Why?
Maybe it's because we give a lot more to them that they offer us in exchange.
If they got nothing out of us being in, then they wouldn't give a damn either way.

This post has been edited by Lynnzer: Fri, 19 Feb 2016 - 16:52


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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 19 Feb 2016 - 17:03
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QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Fri, 19 Feb 2016 - 16:52) *
What makes me suspicious about our part in this is that all the other countries say they would really prefer us to stay within the EC.
Why?
Maybe it's because we give a lot more to them that they offer us in exchange.
If they got nothing out of us being in, then they wouldn't give a damn either way.



http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guar.../EU27_Money.pdf


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buttonpusher
post Fri, 19 Feb 2016 - 17:17
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Add to that the potential for far greater costs when the next 7 countries join with a population of around 100 million, all of them would be entitled to come here (yes I know they all won't) You can see why they don't want us toleave.
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glasgow_bhoy
post Fri, 19 Feb 2016 - 18:58
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QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Fri, 19 Feb 2016 - 16:52) *
What makes me suspicious about our part in this is that all the other countries say they would really prefer us to stay within the EC.
Why?
Maybe it's because we give a lot more to them that they offer us in exchange.
If they got nothing out of us being in, then they wouldn't give a damn either way.

Why shouldn't we put in more that we take? We have more money than many of the less well of members, so its fair I'd say we support them. Its similar to how the tax system in this country works- the more you have the more you pay.

Anyway we've taken many of the best people out of some of the less well off countries- so whilst we pay more money to the EU pot, we probably get a lot more out of it. The Polish guys I work with are astonished at how lazy many of the natives in Glasgow are. I think that says it a lot about the work ethic here, and makes me happy to welcome people in from other countries who simply want to improve their lives and are prepared to work for it.

It may also be that the other EU countries want to keep us in for simple trading purposes. We are pretty good customers to lose, being a wealthy nation and all.

They clearly get something out of us being in the EU, but we definitely reap the benefits too.
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 19 Feb 2016 - 20:16
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QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Fri, 19 Feb 2016 - 18:58) *
QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Fri, 19 Feb 2016 - 16:52) *
What makes me suspicious about our part in this is that all the other countries say they would really prefer us to stay within the EC.
Why?
Maybe it's because we give a lot more to them that they offer us in exchange.
If they got nothing out of us being in, then they wouldn't give a damn either way.

Why shouldn't we put in more that we take? We have more money than many of the less well of members, so its fair I'd say we support them. Its similar to how the tax system in this country works- the more you have the more you pay.

Anyway we've taken many of the best people out of some of the less well off countries- so whilst we pay more money to the EU pot, we probably get a lot more out of it. The Polish guys I work with are astonished at how lazy many of the natives in Glasgow are. I think that says it a lot about the work ethic here, and makes me happy to welcome people in from other countries who simply want to improve their lives and are prepared to work for it.

It may also be that the other EU countries want to keep us in for simple trading purposes. We are pretty good customers to lose, being a wealthy nation and all.

They clearly get something out of us being in the EU, but we definitely reap the benefits too.



Ever heard the saying. He who pay's the piper calls the tune. The EU seems to work the exact opposite. they say this is what we want. Now you pay for it
Not right that


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