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Insurance claim and third party liability
Formfeed
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 11:55
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Firstly sorry this is not related to a motoring offence but I know there are some knowledgeable folk on here may be able to shed some light.

Had an RTC in which I was non-fault, other party has already admitted liability.

My car is written off. Valuation for round figures 1500

Percentage deduction for the car being a previous write off. Percentage deduction for retaining the salvage.

End result just on a grand.

This figure of a grand is enough to buy a replacement car of the same basic type and mileage. However, mine is not only a high spec one but I've also taken some time during its ownership to fix it up and get everything working.

The ones I can find for a grand either do not have the same equipment or where they do, my feeling that it won't be fully working. I've had four of these cars so far and its not an unreasonable assumption that they need work after you buy them.

I asked my insurer to consider that in order _to be returned to the same position as before the crash_ (which they do say they will do) that I'd need some account given to those remedial jobs.

I can do the work myself and was not looking to seek a retail rate for the work. However they say I should work for free? Or have a car which is a lower spec with more faults.

I have asked and cannot find myself what specific legislation I can rely upon to compel the other party to act as despite the legal RTA requirement to have TP cover I can't find any specific reference as to what they liability comprises.

If it is that the innocent party should be returned to the same position as prior to the crash then I don't feel I am being.

If it is market value then I would market the car at the higher price but of course, being that its a good car, I didn't sell it.

Market value seems to be something which the insurers rely on but again I cannot find in legislation the bit that causes this to be the defacto position.

As a side note I have attempted to appoint the Ombudsman but they can only deal with my underwriter direct and there's a claims management company currently in the middle causing more problems than they're solving so no joy there yet. Plus it would be nice to rely on the legal position where one exists, I'll take it to court myself if I can establish my actual legal position.

Thoughts please.


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The above is my view and does not constitute advice.
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post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 11:55
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The Rookie
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 12:00
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As this isn't criminal it's likely to end in the flame pit.

You're entitled to be put back in the position you were before the crash, while an exact one for one may not be available if yours was a cat (x) write off it was worth less. Being able to buy a similar car that wasn't a write off doesn't come into it. Is the deduction for being a total loss reasonable, and the non total loss value representative? Work on disproving those. Insurers will usually haggle up by about 15-20% as that's cheaper for them than going to court.


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Formfeed
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 12:08
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The initial valuation prior to the two deductions would buy one but most likely a private sale and my feeling would be either not be absolutely to spec or some features not working given the age. As has been my experience having had a few of them.

My question relates to fixing up the new one to get it to the same spec and condition.

There are vehicles in spec from dealers but at over twice the money.

What further complicates it is that most are newer when in fact I want an older one as it will be cheaper to tax.

Also I want to rely on the supposition being that I will be in the same position as before.

Plainly if the new car either doesn't have some of the features or they don't work then I'm not.


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stamfordman
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 13:49
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QUOTE (Formfeed @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 12:55) *
This figure of a grand is enough to buy a replacement car of the same basic type and mileage. However, mine is not only a high spec one



Surely you can at least insist on a similar spec.
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Formfeed
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 14:08
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I'm after the specific wording as I'm not comfortable with 'similar'.

Its not even a question of supply of that type of vehicle as I'm happy to do the work to get it the same - just not for free when I am not the negligent party.

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 13:00) *
Insurers will usually haggle up by about 15-20% as that's cheaper for them than going to court.


Both my own insurer and the third party who I contacted directly both said there was no movement at all and that was the price.


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The Rookie
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 14:21
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There is no specific wording, it's common law not statute.


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nigelbb
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 14:50
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Just out of interest what is the mysterious but relatively cheap vehicle that is so attractive to you?


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Formfeed
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 15:01
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Freelander diesel auto with options so I can go and do a day's work in the manner to which I'm accustomed, I've had lesser spec versions and I sold them to get this one, then fixed it up and my view is that a similar position would be not being back where I was before I fixed it up or when I owned cars with a lesser spec. Doesn't even have to be a Freelander but that's what I know and I'll have my old one to donate bits. Anything with air con, cruise, heated seats, in-dash nav and a tow hook would do, I've not even told them about the side steps, bump strips and light guards, or the fact I like green. And why shouldn't I? And those aren't boy racer mods, they're what happens when the original owner ticked every box and as you might expect they're not so common hence why I was happy when I found it. But at that age they're all broken and the newer ones are twice the price to tax. Hence the specific requirements which in my view are not wholly unreasonable. At no point am I looking to benefit from being driven in to, just not lose.

Should it be such a mystery to just want what you had? You wouldn't think it would be difficult, I'm not replacing a priceless classic, just the same car doing the same work is all I ask.


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The above is my view and does not constitute advice.
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Mat_Shamus
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 16:44
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QUOTE (Formfeed @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 13:08) *
The initial valuation prior to the two deductions would buy one but most likely a private sale and my feeling would be either not be absolutely to spec or some features not working given the age. As has been my experience having had a few of them.

My question relates to fixing up the new one to get it to the same spec and condition.

There are vehicles in spec from dealers but at over twice the money.

What further complicates it is that most are newer when in fact I want an older one as it will be cheaper to tax.

Also I want to rely on the supposition being that I will be in the same position as before.

Plainly if the new car either doesn't have some of the features or they don't work then I'm not.



Unfortunately there are many of us, who have been in this same position in the past and the ombudsman tends to side with the insurance companies.
Market value is what an average car of that make, model, year and mileage will usually sell for according to buying guides based on prices on private sales.
An engineer is sometimes dispatched though to either verify, or modify that evaluation.

But from my experience, modifications / enhancements / factory add ons / trim differences / amount of repairs / restoration completed etc none of this has any impact on the valuation to a degree which would make any real difference if any.

If you have a complaint with your own insurance company, you should follow their official complaints procedure then if there is no resolution you can escalate it to the ombudsman after 8 weeks.

I don't think there exists any legislation which can help you force their hand (but happy to be corrected) and unfortunately based on what you've mentioned so far i doubt the ombudsman will intervene.
If you claim off the third party's insurance company then you can't follow the complaints process above.

It's not fair, but unfortunately it's the way insurance companies operate and are regulated

Some insurance companies for modified / collector cars offer something called a fixed value policy where you and your insurance company come to an agreement on how much your car is worth usually with a report and photographs and in the event your car is wrote off, you will be guaranteed that amount.


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southpaw82
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 16:49
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What does your insurance policy say will be the value or method of calculating the value used?


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Formfeed
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 17:03
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 17:49) *
What does your insurance policy say will be the value or method of calculating the value used?


Trade policy so in the event that its my fault I get bottom book and have to get on with it.

My issue here is that I'm claiming against the TP who has already admitted full responsibility.

Its interesting to me that the Ombudsman won't intervene unless with your own insurer, I asked the question of what would happen if I went direct to the TP and they paid me a fiver, would I have any recourse and the quick answer was no! Didn't seem right.

QUOTE (Mat_Shamus @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 17:44) *
based on what you've mentioned so far i doubt the ombudsman will intervene.


They have taken it on but currently held up by the claims management people being the ones who have dealt with the complaint and they need something from the underwriter, who are currently unwilling because they've delegated to the CM.


QUOTE (Mat_Shamus @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 17:44) *
I don't think there exists any legislation which can help you force their hand (but happy to be corrected)


This is my angle - surely if I'm compelled to have TP cover in order that TPs are compensated, that must have some parameters.

This post has been edited by Formfeed: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 17:04


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cp8759
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 18:57
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Are you claiming off the third party insurer? Or are you letting your insurance company "claim-manage" the claim against the TP insurance company?

In either event you have no recourse to the ombudsman, as the ombudsman does not have jurisdiction, because you have no contractual relationship with the TP insurance company (if you think about it if this wasn't the case, very few road accidents would ever go to court as people would just go to the ombudsman instead).

But the fact that it's a TP insurance claim actually makes it easier: because you have no contractual relationship with the TP insurer, what their policy may or may not say is irrelevant: you're not making a contractual claim, you're making a negligence claim. You're therefore entitled to be put back in the position you would have been in "but for" the accident.


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Formfeed
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 19:26
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My initial position was that I was going let my company deal on account of having had time off work so the claim goes slightly further than just the vehicle and I wasn't sure how to proceed with a TP claim in that regard.

On balance I think I've been hoodwinked in to appointing the CM as at no point was it explained that this was optional - I reported it and it was the CM who called back to proceed.

Last bit looks very interesting, but for the accident I'd still have cruise control.

If you can back this up with any specific legislation or anyone has any tips exactly how to proceed that would be lovely. I have called the TP and they did say they would act but that only went as far as making a very similar offer to the CM and not entertaining any negotiation.

This post has been edited by Formfeed: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 19:28


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cp8759
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 21:08
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If you've signed over your rights to your insurer's claims management company, you're kinda f***ed because their terms and conditions will no doubt say that you can't drop them without paying their fees, which are often so punitive that it's not worth ditching them.

So, have you signed any paperwork from the CM company?


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Formfeed
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 23:44
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Nothing signed, I have the stuff here which I was supposed to sign and send back but I've not done it yet. The only agreement to proceed was on the phone and even then I don't think all the options were fully explored.

Might do a SAR and get the call and see what exactly happened in respect of their appointment.

I also don't know if I've surrendered my rights to use the Ombudsman, surely it wouldn't be right that you could do that without full disclosure and acceptance.


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cp8759
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 08:25
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Here's what I would do:

1) Call the CM that their services are no longer required, as you're perfectly happy to manage the claim yourself.

2) Call the TP insurance company, tell them you're going to be managing the claim directly, and ask them to forward any offers that may have been made directly to you.

As for your rights to use the ombudsman, you never surrendered them because you never had any such rights in the first place: You're not a customer of the TP insurance company, so the ombudsman has no jurisdiction over the matter.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Formfeed
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 09:31
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I've already done number 2 except that I told the TP I would sack the CM if the TP was willing to act, which they said they were, only to give me a similar figure.

Come to think of it the CM were very willing to close the case, presumably so they can invoke any penalty clauses. But I asked them to keep it open until I had the figure back from the TP.

I need to compel the TP to treat this 'but for' the accident, instead of market value standard answers that I've had thus far.


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cp8759
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 21:36
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Well I would suggest you need to get rid of the CM asap, from their perspective the easiest thing to do is accept the offer and pocket the fee.

Have you got anything in writing from the TP outlining the basis of their offer?


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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The Rookie
post Sat, 17 Aug 2019 - 07:35
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Bin the CM, ask the TP who they would like to use as an ADR before you commence your civil claim formerly via an LBA, see what they then say?

You could point out to the CM, they are meant to be working for you!

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Sat, 17 Aug 2019 - 07:35


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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Mat_Shamus
post Sat, 17 Aug 2019 - 09:00
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QUOTE (Formfeed @ Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 10:31) *
I need to compel the TP to treat this 'but for' the accident, instead of market value standard answers that I've had thus far.


Let us know if you are able to.
Over the years i've seen dozens try, including myself but without any success.


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