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PCN in Kensington & Chelsea for single yellow at 8:37am whilst loading car outside my house - 10 min grace period?
gtahhh
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 21:37
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Hello

I parked overnight outside my house in the Kensington & Chelsea on a single yellow. I started packing the car just before 8:30am and then went in to get 2 large suitcases (down 4 flights of stairs) to put in the car before leaving. I thought I was only a few minutes doing this but I got a ticket at 8:37am.

I live here and have done for nearly a year and my car and driving licence are registered at this address. However, I haven't got a residents' parking permit yet as I hardly ever park my car here. I will get one at the end of next month.

I see that some councils apply the 10 minute grace periods to single yellow lines and start ticketing at 8:41am. The parking attendant told me he works on 5 minutes and will start ticketing at 8:36. You'll see from the PCN that he did wait for 5 mins, which he said was to give me chance to move the car but I suspect it was really so he didn't miss the chance to issue the ticket.

Do you think there is any hope of leniency given the time of the PCN and/or that I am a resident loading my car, despite not with a permit? Also, how accurate are the clocks used in the ticketing devices?

Thanks
-g


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post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 21:37
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gtahhh
post Mon, 23 Sep 2019 - 18:20
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In addition to uploading the scanned charge certificate, do I need to outline to additional points for my case over an above my representations, ie, that the misapplied the commercial loading rules in my case and that they mistakenly believed I had a residents' permit at the time.
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cp8759
post Mon, 23 Sep 2019 - 19:41
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Has the council submitted any evidence? You can easily check this on the tribunal website. Unless it does, there's no point in spending any time on this because if the council doesn't contest the case, the tribunal will allow the appeal without considering anything that you might submit.

Has the council submitted any evidence? You can easily check this on the tribunal website. Unless it does, there's no point in spending any time on this because if the council doesn't contest the case, the tribunal will allow the appeal without considering anything that you might submit.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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gtahhh
post Mon, 23 Sep 2019 - 22:51
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No, there has been nothing added by RBKC.

I uploaded the charge certificate but as yet haven't added any text or commentary. The charge certificate is simply a scan of the letter and I wasn't able to add an annotation to this bit of evidence.
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gtahhh
post Wed, 2 Oct 2019 - 22:29
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I've checked the case online and RBKC haven't added any evidence. What do I do? Should I wait until 6 or 7 days before the hearing date and then add a letter to state my case, ie, a) that they wrongly applied commercial loading rules; b) that they mistakenly believed that I has a residents permit at the time; and c) that they've sent me a charge order when they knew about the hearing?
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cp8759
post Thu, 3 Oct 2019 - 12:35
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Wait till it gets to 5 working days, by then you'll know if the council is going to contest. If the council doesn't contest, you don't need to submit anything at all.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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gtahhh
post Thu, 10 Oct 2019 - 21:51
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The council is going to contest. See the letter they sent along with the pack they submitted to the adjudicator. You'll see they have tried to gloss over the charge certificate they issued, which I believe was a procedural impropriety. They also make a mistake and say the PCN was issued at 8:47am, whereas it was issued at 8:37am. They double down on their point about asking for an invoice or receipt by way of evidence of loading.

I have enclosed the first page of a 47 page document, of which they sent the first 36 pages. They also sent a copy of all correspondence and exhibit in the case so far. The only new material which I hadn't seen was a case status report from their system and the DVLA search to confirm I was the registered keeper.

I think I need to lodge my points with the adjudicator by tomorrow (11th), although the case status report shows the 9th as the 'evidence due date'. The hearing is on the 16th Oct.

I would appreciate any help with the wording necessary to state my case.

Thank you
-g





Case status report:


And the first page of the (relevant?) traffic management order which was included in the pack (pp1-36 of 47:
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Incandescent
post Thu, 10 Oct 2019 - 22:34
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It just shows how completely thick and stupid they are stating they need "documentary evidence" but don't refer to what they asked the appellant to provide. Their refusal letter referred to delivery notes and invoices, both commercial documents. The loading exemption for yellow lines applies regardless of whether it is commercial or domestic loading. Of course one would expect the appellant to supply some information on the nature of the items being loaded and this could include photographs. In addition, they completely gloss over the appellants statement that the CEO actually observed loading activity.

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gtahhh
post Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 00:40
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I saw the CEO as I was carrying the first of the heavier cases to the car. This would have been at 8.38 or 8.39, just minutes after the ticket was issue. He was sitting on his scooter. wth his helmet on his head but with his face exposed, he was a black guy, medium build, early 30s. I spoke to him and said that I thought he should give me 10 mins grace and he explained that that was only for parking bays and that he had waited for 5 mins before issuing the ticket. He definitely saw me!

I think I need to submit a statement to the tribunal site today. What should I cover in this statement?
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Incandescent
post Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 09:51
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I would say that you need to present your original reps to the Notice to Owner, and then rebut all the things they say in their letter of rejection. Also add in that whilst the CEO may not have seen you loading when he wrote out the PCN, he saw you shortly after, with your first load. You point out that you had a short conversation, and that his notes should reflect that he did see you in the process of loading. You point out that their letter, in asking for commercial documents to prove loading is wrong in law, as the exemption applies to all loading of bulky goods and chattels.
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cp8759
post Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 19:54
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Obviously you must re-iterate to the tribunal that the tribunal letter notifying you of the appeal is dated 12 September, and the charge certificate is dated 17 September, that is your trump card. Post a draft here before sending it to the tribunal, you have until the 15h to submit it.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 19:55


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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gtahhh
post Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 22:20
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I have drafted the following. Please let me know how it can be improved.

Thank you
-g

Dear Sir/Madam

In addition to the informal and formal representations that I have made, I would like to make the following statements in response to the Council’s Notice of Rejection and to comment on the Council’s actions and statements following the initiation of this adjudication process.

1. Loading and unloading is a permitted exemption. By way of evidence of loading the Council asked for documentary evidence, including a “signed and dated delivery note”’, a “job sheet”, an “invoice” or a “receipt”. Documentation of this type relates to commercial loading activity and isn’t relevant in this case. The loading exemption for yellow lines applies regardless of whether it is commercial or domestic loading. I submitted photographic evidence of the bulky items I was loading at the time of the alleged contravention along with a description of the items’ size and weight. The council repeatedly failed to take this evidence into account, stating that “the photograph of the bag you have provided is not sufficient evidence to review this case”.

2. In the Council’s submission to the adjudicator, where they make reference to a request for documentary evidence, they fail to mention the inappropriate types of evidence they requested.

3. Whilst the CEO may not have seen me loading when he wrote out the PCN at 8:37am, he saw me carrying a heavy suitcase to my car approximately 1 or 2 minutes after the ticket was issued, around 8:38am or 8:39am.

4. I had a short conversation with the CEO, who was sitting on his scooter as I came out of my house, whilst carrying the third bag to my car. The CEO’s notes should reflect that he saw me in the process of loading.

5. In the Council’s submission to the adjudicator it is incorrectly stated that the PCN was issued at 8:47am. The PCN clearly shows 8:37am as the time of the alleged contravention.

6. In the Council’s Notice of Rejection they mistakenly assumed that I was a residents’ parking permit holder at the date of the alleged contravention and suggested I “could have loaded unloaded for an unlimited time in a residents bay” [sic]. This assumption was not true.

7. The tribunal letter notifying me of the appeal is dated 12th September 2019. The Charge Certificate issued by the Council is dated 17th September 2019. This action by the Council constitutes a procedural impropriety.
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Neil B
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 10:30
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QUOTE (gtahhh @ Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 23:20) *
7. The tribunal letter notifying me of the appeal is dated 12th September 2019. The Charge Certificate issued by the Council is dated 17th September 2019. This action by the Council constitutes a procedural impropriety.

"The Charge Certificate" ?

Doesn't work for me.
Surely they haven't submitted it in their evidence?
Rather, 'A' Charge Certificate. (until you flag it up - then it becomes 'the')

I would not put it as a numbered point at all (where 1-6 all refer to loading).

Use headings.
After your opening para

'There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the enforcement authority'

A Charge Certificate has been served in this case despite my registration of this appeal.
Notice confirming my appeal registered was given by the tribunal on 12th September. The Charge Certificate
was issued on 17th September.
I submit that such action constitutes a procedural impropriety.

----

The alleged contravention did not occur

Opening sentence to paint the essence.
i.e. no contravention as exempt by virtue of loading.

Then your 1 - 6.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 10:33


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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cp8759
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 17:30
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I agree with Neil, you're the one introducing the charge certificate. I doubt the council will have included it in its evidence bundle so you must upload the CC to the tribunal yourself, if you have not already done so.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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