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Land theft from the white minority in South Africa
MFM
post Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 09:37
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What do we think about this?
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post Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 09:37
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southpaw82
post Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 10:35
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QUOTE (MFM @ Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 10:37) *
What do we think about this?

I don’t think the site has an official position.


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MFM
post Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 10:40
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 11:35) *
I don’t think the site has an official position.


That's a good thing, because I didn't ask for one. The members on the other hand...
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Fredd
post Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 10:50
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QUOTE (MFM @ Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 10:37) *
Land theft from the white minority in South Africa

What do we think about this?

I think "we" can guess from the title you've chosen what you think about it. And Breitbart and Donald Trump, I note. If it were happening.

I look forward to your next thread giving a bit of historical context, presumably to be titled "Land theft from the black majority in South Africa".

Alternatively "we" could leave it to the South Africans to continue to manage their extremenly problematic situation in their own way, as they've done for over 20 years in a surprisingly peaceful way so far, without choosing sides based on skin colour.


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MFM
post Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 11:20
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QUOTE (Fredd @ Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 11:50) *
I think "we" can guess from the title you've chosen what you think about it. And Breitbart and Donald Trump, I note. If it were happening.

I look forward to your next thread giving a bit of historical context, presumably to be titled "Land theft from the black majority in South Africa".

Alternatively "we" could leave it to the South Africans to continue to manage their extremenly problematic situation in their own way, as they've done for over 20 years in a surprisingly peaceful way so far, without choosing sides based on skin colour.


"I think "we" can guess from the title you've chosen what you think about it. And Breitbart and Donald Trump, I note". If you have to guess then you are probably condoning the racist policies of the South African government just like the liberal media is at the moment.

"If it were happening". If what were happening? Taking white owned land without compensation? Robbing, raping, murdering and torturing white farmers and their families by the thousands? Turning a once prosperous flourishing economy into a hell hole which is the rape and murder capital of the world? Please do tell.

"I look forward to your next thread giving a bit of historical context, presumably to be titled "Land theft from the black majority in South Africa". There won't be such a thread because no land is being stolen from the black majority. Or have I missed something? If you're talking about the past, well, then it seems you're siding with the liberal narrative once again where collective punishment is just and the solution for something that happened so long ago where almost no one alive today had any involvement.

"Alternatively "we" could leave it to the South Africans to continue to manage their extremenly problematic situation in their own way, as they've done for over 20 years in a surprisingly peaceful way so far, without choosing sides based on skin colour". What, like the west left South Africans 'to continue to manage their extremenly problematic situation in their own way during Apartheid?' As for doing so in a surprisingly peaceful manner, not sure where you've been the last 2 decades. If you bothered to look at the statistics, you will find that far far fewer people were murdered during the entire Apartheid era than are being murdered in one year under black rule.
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Churchmouse
post Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 17:32
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QUOTE (MFM @ Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 12:20) *
"I think "we" can guess from the title you've chosen what you think about it. And Breitbart and Donald Trump, I note". If you have to guess then you are probably condoning the racist policies of the South African government just like the liberal media is at the moment.

Yeah, but aren't you glad you don't live in a "shithole country"? By the way, there's no need to copy the Yanks' ignorant misuse of the term "liberal".

--Churchmouse
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cabbyman
post Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 17:41
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.....And in other news, the paint is still drying on my landing wall!


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southpaw82
post Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 17:45
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QUOTE (MFM @ Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 11:40) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 11:35) *
I don’t think the site has an official position.


That's a good thing, because I didn't ask for one. The members on the other hand...

Perhaps “you” rather than “we” then?


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andy_foster
post Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 20:30
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QUOTE (MFM @ Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 10:37) *
What do we think about this?


I think that you're trying to make a statement by pretending to ask a question. Whatever the merits or otherwise of whoever's argument you've attached yourself to, such behaviour makes me somewhat disinclined to give a proverbial f**k.


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notmeatloaf
post Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 21:06
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I have numerous South African colleagues, and I don't think it is at all a simple situation that you can sum up in a right vs wrong scenario. Everyone of them has said it is such a different way of living compared to here. People say to me you keep your head down, don't rock the boat, because you're aware your existence is precarious.

Unfortunately in that situation people will look to scapegoats, it is human nature. You think if things got really tough here people wouldn't turn on sections of society in return for the promise of more resources for the deserving majority? The one some sections of the press are desperate to get into here are benefits claimants to force scroungers into work. People would go along with it in the drop of a hat.

Glass houses and all that.
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DancingDad
post Sat, 1 Sep 2018 - 10:51
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Age old dichotomy, the rich are usually the ones who create wealth but are the ones targeted for having done so.
If targeted enough, there is no one left creating anything.
SA needs to look at its neighbour, Zimbabwe, to see the potential results.
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nigelbb
post Sat, 1 Sep 2018 - 11:56
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 1 Sep 2018 - 11:51) *
Age old dichotomy, the rich are usually the ones who create wealth but are the ones targeted for having done so.
If targeted enough, there is no one left creating anything.
SA needs to look at its neighbour, Zimbabwe, to see the potential results.

There is bound to be some resentment when immigrants steal land from the native population. The Palestinians don't like it either. Likewise original inhabitants of the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Brazil etc etc


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DancingDad
post Sat, 1 Sep 2018 - 12:54
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QUOTE (nigelbb @ Sat, 1 Sep 2018 - 12:56) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 1 Sep 2018 - 11:51) *
Age old dichotomy, the rich are usually the ones who create wealth but are the ones targeted for having done so.
If targeted enough, there is no one left creating anything.
SA needs to look at its neighbour, Zimbabwe, to see the potential results.

There is bound to be some resentment when immigrants steal land from the native population. The Palestinians don't like it either. Likewise original inhabitants of the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Brazil etc etc


Resentment I can understand but what were the native population doing with the land before the Brits and Boers settled on it and what will they do with it if they get it back ?

I am not arguing historical differences, unless you count the last 20 years in Zimbabwe as historical.
Post Mugabe there seems to be an acceptance that major errors happened, errors that reduced a once thriving farming community to needing food aid.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-03/zimb...-return/9392322
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notmeatloaf
post Sat, 1 Sep 2018 - 20:38
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The thing to remember in South Africa is that it has a very high crime rate. Loads of people get murdered and raped. From what I understand it isn't higher or lower for white farmers versus the general population.

It doesn't prove they are being targeted, just that they are not immune from crime.
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whitewing
post Sun, 2 Sep 2018 - 12:49
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AIUI the issue is not just the the theft, but that farms that have been investeted in for many decades with technology etc. by their white owners are being handed over to clueless people who can't run it which will eventually lead to food shortages and maybe worse.
youtu.be/a_bDc7FfItk"]https://youtu.be/a_bDc7FfItk
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notmeatloaf
post Sun, 2 Sep 2018 - 20:28
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QUOTE (whitewing @ Sun, 2 Sep 2018 - 13:49) *
AIUI the issue is not just the the theft, but that farms that have been investeted in for many decades with technology etc. by their white owners are being handed over to clueless people who can't run it which will eventually lead to food shortages and maybe worse.
youtu.be/a_bDc7FfItk"]https://youtu.be/a_bDc7FfItk

You don't know what you are talking about.

It is indisputable that in apartheid from 1959 to 1994 considerable land was forcibly taken from black people to white, to the point where a small percentage of white people own over two thirds of farmland in SA.

Currently to redress that balance black people can effectively compulsorily purchase farmland they used to own. This can either be a price agreed by both parties, or the court decides a price. No farmland to date has been "handed over" because it has always been paid for.

There isn't some "who can be the best farmer" contest. In fact it by definition it will normally be farmed less effectively because the point of this is black people are poorer and thus less resourced. The country takes the hit in GDP in an effort to make society fairer.

The government is considering changing the constitution so that farms can be taken without compensation, simply because as above things are still currently hugely skewed. Apartheid was clearly incredibly unfair, and unpicking it inevitably will involve unfairness too.

But this idea that farms are being "stolen" or "handed over" is incorrect even if it is repeated often.

We see the same in this country to a lesser extent - for instance in my Trust they now guarantee an interview to disabled candidates if you meet the minimum person specification. It leads to constant howls mostly from white middle aged men that they didn't get a job because someone disabled git preferable treatment. They are probably right - disabled people are being given favourable chances but it's to try and correct historical unfavourable treatment. You don't get a fairer society without giving some people a leg up.
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Richy320
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 11:03
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sun, 2 Sep 2018 - 21:28) *
It is indisputable that in apartheid from 1959 to 1994 considerable land was forcibly taken from black people to white, to the point where a small percentage of white people own over two thirds of farmland in SA.

Actually that statement is very disputable because it’s utter rubbish and shows complete ignorance regarding the history of South Africa.

What is indisputable is that the French stole not a considerable amount of land from the English, but ALL of it! When William arrived in 1066 he seized all the land in England and then divided it up amongst his fellow thieves.

Some 950 years later more than 70% of Britain’s land remains in the hands of less than 1% of the population, some 160,000 families.

Sounds like a much bigger injustice to me!

QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sun, 2 Sep 2018 - 21:28) *
....... in my Trust they now guarantee an interview to disabled candidates if you meet the minimum person specification. It leads to constant howls mostly from white middle aged men that they didn't get a job because someone disabled got preferable treatment. They are probably right - disabled people are being given favourable chances ........


When I was young my parents told me two wrongs don’t make a right! I guess they were wrong.


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peterguk
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 11:11
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QUOTE (Richy320 @ Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 12:03) *
What is indisputable is that the French stole not a considerable amount of land from the English, but ALL of it! When William arrived in 1066 he seized all the land in England and then divided it up amongst his fellow thieves.

Some 950 years later more than 70% of Britain’s land remains in the hands of less than 1% of the population, some 160,000 families.





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southpaw82
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 11:13
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QUOTE (Richy320 @ Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 12:03) *
What is indisputable is that the French stole not a considerable amount of land from the English, but ALL of it! When William arrived in 1066 he seized all the land in England and then divided it up amongst his fellow thieves.

I thought it was the Normans.


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Richy320
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 11:39
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You are quite correct, it was the Normans who, technically, were Vikings living on lands in Northern France ceded to them by the French King. They became Christians, assimilated themselves into French society and swore fealty to the French King. Close enough to French for me!


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