Builder in parking bay within 10 minutes Options

[barnfair]

Hi there
I had a worker come to my house. There is a restriction between 10-11am within residents only bays.
His car was in a bay.
He received a ticket at 10:07 outside the house he was working.
Is there not a grace period of 10 minutes?
I challenged the parking attendant who told me it's 10 minutes for large cars(recently changed from 15 mins) and only 5 minutes for smaller cars.(it was a 7 seater!) I said that's rubbish and he kindle offered to put a note on the system.
How best could I help him with this?
Many thanks.

https://i.ibb.co/546580n/20210219-124820.jpg

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[DancingDad]

IT's coming back to the old discussion on what a parking bay is when it is not restricted.... IMO a designated parking place within the meaning of the regulations and hence permitted parking.
I would continue, your money, your choice but although not 100% odds are in your favour IMO

[PASTMYBEST]

They don't suggest the GP does not exist but then then do not understand what it is either At the start of a restriction in a designated parking bay when the vehicle was parked lawfully at the start of the restriction then no PCN can be served for ten minutes after the start of the restriction.

Bay or no the builder was parked lawfully at 10 am so no PCN can be served til 10.11am

The last sentence of this appeal finding is pertinent

2170328307

The appellant car was ticketed at 1836.

The officer ticketing the appellant car photographed the pay-and-display voucher which was timed with an expiry time of 1839.

The Council has pursued payment of the penalty charge despite the appellant argument based on the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions(England) General (Amendment) Regulations 2015.

The crucial provisions in point are the amendments introduced by article 2 in those regulations.

Its paragraph (3) reads - "No penalty charge is payable for the contravention where the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period for a period not exceeding 10 minutes."; the following paragraph (4) (b) (i) defines permitted parking period thus - "a period of parking that has been paid for as authorised by or under any order made relating to the designated parking place..:"

The combined effect of these provisions is that the permitted parking period paid for in this particular case finished at 1830. In my ruling this appellant has the benefit of the 10 minute "grace period" introduced in 2015.

I have not accepted the Council argument that the penalty charge remains valid and enforceable as the nature of the bay and entitlements to occupy it changed at 1830.

I have consequently recorded the appeal as allowed.



Of course if the council can produce a TMO showing the bay is only designated for that one hour a day you would lose and i would retire because i just do not believe they made an order to that effect

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 - 18:52

[barnfair]

They don't suggest the GP does not exist but then then do not understand what it is either At the start of a restriction in a designated parking bay when the vehicle was parked lawfully at the start of the restriction then no PCN can be served for ten minutes after the start of the restriction.

Bay or no the builder was parked lawfully at 10 am so no PCN can be served til 10.11am

The last sentence of this appeal finding is pertinent

2170328307

The appellant car was ticketed at 1836.

The officer ticketing the appellant car photographed the pay-and-display voucher which was timed with an expiry time of 1839.

The Council has pursued payment of the penalty charge despite the appellant argument based on the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions(England) General (Amendment) Regulations 2015.

The crucial provisions in point are the amendments introduced by article 2 in those regulations.

Thank you so much.

So what do you feel the best way to appeal this should be?

Its paragraph (3) reads - "No penalty charge is payable for the contravention where the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period for a period not exceeding 10 minutes."; the following paragraph (4) (b) (i) defines permitted parking period thus - "a period of parking that has been paid for as authorised by or under any order made relating to the designated parking place..:"

The combined effect of these provisions is that the permitted parking period paid for in this particular case finished at 1830. In my ruling this appellant has the benefit of the 10 minute "grace period" introduced in 2015.

I have not accepted the Council argument that the penalty charge remains valid and enforceable as the nature of the bay and entitlements to occupy it changed at 1830.

I have consequently recorded the appeal as allowed.



Of course if the council can produce a TMO showing the bay is only designated for that one hour a day you would lose and i would retire because i just do not believe they made an order to that effect

[cp8759]

Personally I would carry on.

[barnfair]

Personally I would carry on.

Thank you.

Carry on? Do you mean wait for notice to owner and appeal?

[PASTMYBEST]

Personally I would carry on.

Thank you.

Carry on? Do you mean wait for notice to owner and appeal?

Yes but it will be the builder who gets the NTO not you. And for the next stage you must have his written permission to act on his behalf.

[cp8759]

Well wait for the Notice to Owner and then make a representation. If they reject, then you appeal.

[hcandersen]

I'd write back.

Dear *****,

PCN *********

Thank you for your letter dated ****.

For the purposes of clarification - your letter being unclear on these points - would you please answer the following questions. Does the council:

1. Consider that the parking place is a 'designated parking place' only during the restricted hours or at all times?
2. Was my vehicle lawfully parked at ***(the time I parked) and at all times until the commencement of restricted hours?

I need your definitive responses to the above in order to inform my decision whether to pay the discount or continue to dispute the matter.

Thank you.

********

[barnfair]

Many thanks for this.

This is not working through the online challenge.

Should I email them or send a letter my post?

I'd write back.

Dear *****,

PCN *********

Thank you for your letter dated ****.

For the purposes of clarification - your letter being unclear on these points - would you please answer the following questions. Does the council:

1. Consider that the parking place is a 'designated parking place' only during the restricted hours or at all times?
2. Was my vehicle lawfully parked at ***(the time I parked) and at all times until the commencement of restricted hours?

I need your definitive responses to the above in order to inform my decision whether to pay the discount or continue to dispute the matter.

Thank you.

********

[Gert]

On the assumption that there is no parking restrictions of any sort before 10am, then the ten minute grace period allowed by law applies.

Neither you nor the vehicle owner should pay a penny.The CEO jumped the gun, had they waited til 10:11 and there's no argument to be made.

If you originally told the LA the vehicle was parked from 09:30, the decision shows the person who rejected the reps doesn't understand the law.

An email now is the best way to stop this nonsense. You just need to tell them that no vehicle parked in that resident parking permit bay before the start of restrictions may be lawfully served with a PCN until the expiry of the ten minutes period allowing a driver to return and remove their vehicle, from the onset of those restrictions. Quote the legislation details and invite them or a competent person in the organisation to confirm it before responding.

If they reject again, then your builder has to hold their nerve and tell them this unpalatable truth again. If rejected, go to the Tribunal and tell them so the Adjudicator can cancel the PCN.

[Mr Mustard]

I do not think there is a grace period at the start of the one hour restriction because no other restriction applies for 23 hours and so there is no 'designated parking place' in those 23 hours and although free parking is permitted by default, it is not legislated for.

I tried this argument in 2016 and lost at the tribunal, a case on which I asked for a review, 2160523532. Here is the meat of the original decision with my added emphasis:

The Appellant parked in a bay designated for a coach or a bus. The restrictions start at 8:00 am. The PCN was issued at 8:02 am. Mr Dishman submits that a PCN could not have been issued until 8:11 am. He accepts at the hearing that it would be more correct to say that no penalty charge is payable if the PCMN is issued before 8:11 am.

The submission is based on an interpretation of Regulation 4 of the Civil Enforcement of parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 as amended in 2015.

The relevant subsection bites where a vehicle is stationary in a designated parking place and the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period.

Mr Dishman submits that the vehicle was essentially in a designated (but free) parking place and left beyond the parking period from 8:00 am to 8:02 am. I do not agree for two reasons.

First, the bay signage refers to a bay restriction from 8:00 am to 9:00 am. tis is followed by a waiting restriction from 9:00 am to 3:00 pm. There is then another period of bay restrictions up to 5:00 pm and after that a no waiting restriction ending at 8:00 pm. From 8:00 pm to 8:00 am the next day, there are no restrictions of any kind.

I do not think that no restrictions means permitted parking. The latter means that there are restrictions but parking is allowed subject to certain conditions being met e.g. by payment. A permitted parking period for a designated parking space is therefore the period for which one is allowed to park in the bay and this is from 8:00 am to 9:00 am in this case.

The Appellant's vehicle has not overstayed a permitted parking period for the parking bay. It was in the bay when it was not allowed. Mr Dishman is therefore not relying on a grace period for overstaying a permitted period. He is asking for a grace period to park in a bay when such parking is not permitted. He is not going to find the latter.

The householder, on behalf of their builder, knew the rules and took a gamble which they lost. My advice is to pay the 50% and to keep visitor vouchers in stock, they are available in physical cardboard form if you give a good reason (such as not having access to the internet, or in my case because my gardener, the most frequent user, visits when I am not home) or by setting up an internet account and then you enter the vehicle registration as your visitor arrives.

This post has been edited by Mr Mustard: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 - 09:38

[DancingDad]

I think the adjudicator in that one got it wrong...who was it?
There are two facets, is it a designated bay and was parking permitted?
The latter is a given, parking was permitted. In that respect the adjudicator in the case Mr M quoted is wrong.

I accept there is a question on whether or not a parking space without restrictions applying at that time is a designated bay but to me, this is the sort of thing that the regulations were brought in for.
Places where parking was allowed, whether by payment or by whatever restrictions apply and parliament felt that a grace period was required to protect where short overstay conflict with a CEO champing at the bit..

[hcandersen]

With respect to Mr. M and disrespect to the quoted adj, in the first instance the issue is one of law, not assumption.

The adj must have had a relevant TMO in front of them and therefore there was no reason for them to guess. 'Designated parking place' will be defined in the order, so the adj's opinion is neither here nor there, they cannot find as a fact something that is defined to the contrary in the order unless the order is manifestly absurd e.g. a drafting error, but this doesn't apply.

NB. if the adj was correct, then no limited time parking place could be suspended outside these hours using the administrative provision in an order, they'd have to use s14!



The above illustrates the purpose of my suggestion to write back to the council to establish:

1. Their opinion as regards whether the bay is designated 24/7, and
2. Even whether they have a view on the matter, realise its significance and whether if they don't know/don't think its relevant to establish 'failure to consider' grounds..by drafting formal reps to focus on this issue.

OP, you have a letter from the council with a name in the signature block - but you haven't shown us either in full although you've shown us a tantalising snippet of their address ......

Write and address to whoever signed the letter, Barnet Parking Services, .....

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 - 10:56

[PASTMYBEST]

stamf says it is within a CPZ, I'll take him at his word on that .If this is the case then it must be a designated bay 4/7 even if 3 hours are unrestricted. A CPZ must be marked with a waiting/stopping restriction or a parking place.

If the council intended that it was not a bay for those 3 hours then a SYL should be in situ

Ans second the bay is signed with the standard P as per TSRGD s5 p1

[stamfordman]

Zone entrance on that road.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6212242,-0....6384!8i8192

Bay:

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6211103,-0....6384!8i8192

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 - 11:19

[cp8759]

I also agree with posts 32 to 34, the 10 minute rule must be engaged unless the TMO says the bay is only designated for 1 hour a day. If it's not a designated bay then it would need a SYL.

[Mr Mustard]

Barnet uses a map based order to show restrictions by location (I selected a one hour bay at random) and defines parking places etc in the boilerplate

https://ibb.co/5297hMV
https://ibb.co/cL7XJcJ
https://ibb.co/Zh2GC5p

Link to maps https://www.barnettraffweb.co.uk/main.html


This post has been edited by Mr Mustard: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 - 17:17

[PASTMYBEST]

Barnet uses a map based order to show restrictions by location (I selected a one hour bay at random) and defines parking places etc in the boilerplate

https://ibb.co/5297hMV
https://ibb.co/cL7XJcJ
https://ibb.co/Zh2GC5p

Link to maps https://www.barnettraffweb.co.uk/main.html

The map shows all the signs with a no waiting yellow plate this needs be in place and isn't

[cp8759]

I don't see anything that would allow the council to contend the parking place is only a designated parking place one hour a day.