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NTO but no PCN
elvas
post Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 13:22
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Hi all

My missus got a notice to owner yesterday but she did not get a pcn. We checked the council website and there is a picture with said pcn but sometime after that it must have been taken away by a prankster or d**khead. She definitely does not recall in getting the pcn and looking at the sreet signs she was parked illegally. Is there anything we can do to at least get a reduced payment accepted? I've attached the NTO below;

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1FILuQ0MDv...SzbWQL8evaytqSM
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1vuYu-nPC0...cpQDskpn0iRbM_G
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1eF8lJv0_E...hmDIXtArgsnfJO6
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lKyvOewsJ...Y5DLQb4Y4nPylWD

Cheers for any advice.
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post Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 13:22
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 13:55
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post a GSV and the council photos


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elvas
post Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 20:19
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Whats a GSV please?
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stamfordman
post Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 20:28
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GSV = Google street view

If you post the council's pics that would help.


Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.

in any case you can ask for the discount back - they will almost certainly allow that if you say the PCN went missing from car, which is quite common.
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elvas
post Sat, 19 Jan 2019 - 20:59
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ok thanks I'll do it tomorrow
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elvas
post Sun, 20 Jan 2019 - 10:56
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Morning

GSV:

51°38'01.4"N 0°06'09.5"W
51.633728, -0.102642

Images:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1HQ_jrxop8...pfd1HNpOI5S3ghi
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1aJIvJMj1y...xs0c6aianH98pvZ
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1b9Jf2edQ4...JLPc8SEgb6SmrjJ
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1JURHRmDgC...gnWF5AVvFaoWRCc

Cheers
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DancingDad
post Sun, 20 Jan 2019 - 11:32
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Make it easy for us please.
Find where on streetview, position the "camera" to the view you want us to see, copy the address in the header bar, paste it here.
Then we have a clickable link we can go straight to.
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cp8759
post Sun, 20 Jan 2019 - 21:33
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So here: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.63348,-0....6384!8i8192

Looks banged-to-right to be honest. Upload the PCN in full, both sides, so we can check for errors.


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elvas
post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 14:57
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We didn't get the PCN only the NTO. Yes she parked thinking it was sunday (I thought women can multi task?)

I'll just write to them and request to pay the discounted amount. Is there anything I should add?

This post has been edited by elvas: Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 14:58
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cp8759
post Wed, 23 Jan 2019 - 15:08
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If you explain the PCN was not found on the car they will re-offer the discount as a matter of routine.

You can also ask them to exercise discretion to cancel for a one-off mistake. If they reject by saying they're "unable to cancel", that's an unlawful fettering of discretion and a procedural impropriety, which gives you grounds to appeal to the tribunal. So it's worth asking.


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elvas
post Thu, 24 Jan 2019 - 18:57
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Ok thanks I'll give it a shot and post what happens. Regards
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elvas
post Tue, 29 Jan 2019 - 14:45
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"that's an unlawful fettering of discretion and a procedural impropriety"

Should I include this statement in the first appeal?
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cp8759
post Tue, 29 Jan 2019 - 20:34
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No, you want them to slip up so don't warn them not to!


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elvas
post Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 22:57
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Hi all

Received the rejection letter;

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1SRQpfkVhc...KYpMi6rViA2FQwA
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1wrk4Canue...K7_EtE7frIA3HA0

What should I do pay the reduced fine or challenge as previously mentioned?

Regards
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cp8759
post Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 23:45
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Show us a copy of what you sent.


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hcandersen
post Tue, 5 Feb 2019 - 09:26
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It depends on your approach to risk.

IMO, the NOR constitutes a procedural impropriety.

There are 2 errors the compound effect of which means that the NOR does not convey the meaning of the regs and misleads.

1. The regs provide that if the charge is not paid before the end of the 28-day period it may be increased by 50% by the authority; and

2. The regs provide that the adjudicator may in their absolute discretion register an appeal submitted after the 28-day period.

BOTH must be included in the NOR, but neither is correctly and clearly.

The NOR informs you that an appeal can only be against the full(£130), not surcharged(£195), penalty.

So the adj can only hear appeals against £130, therefore if, as the authority state, the penalty increases to £195 on day 29 (the penalty WILL increase), then does this mean that the adj cannot register a late appeal? How could this be, the adj has absolute discretion. But not according to the NOR.

This dog's breakfast of misstatement has come aboout because the NOR must state 'may' not 'will' increase, and omits entirely the crucial info for owners that appeals may be submitted late.

(Often the use of 'will' as opposed to 'may' is just punted as an impropriety on its own. IMO, this is too simplistic: its effect within the context of the NOR must also be considered. In this case, it's not so much fettering the authority's discretion as purporting to fetter the adjudicator's, plus just being plainly wrong and misleading).



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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 5 Feb 2019 - 09:57
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If you ever wonder why a slew of cases at London Tribunals are currently decided on Statutory Declaration\Witness Statement grounds you have the answer to the £130 v £195 issue ---lots of unscrupulous people gaming the system.

Mick
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elvas
post Tue, 5 Feb 2019 - 11:37
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Hi our appeal is as follows;

Dear Sir or Madam

I received a Notice to Owner recently but I did not receive a PCN. I have viewed the evidence on your website but when I returned to my car it was not there. I am very disappointed that firstly I got a PCN and secondly I did not get the chance to pay the reduced rate. I would like to ask you to exercise discretion in this case and cancel the PCN as a one off mistake. I did not realise that this road has parking restrictions on Saturday where most other roads in the area are only Monday to Friday. I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Regards
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hcandersen
post Tue, 5 Feb 2019 - 12:29
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No, no, no.

Here are the enforcement and appeals procedures:

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/unde...rcement-process

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/appe...ocess-explained

You have receved a NOR. Your options are therefore to pay or appeal to the adjudicator. If to appeal, then you complete the form which is simply your notification form and the start of the process: you are not at the stage of writing your appeal in detail.

Your grounds
Procedural impropriety.

You cannot appeal to the adj on the basis of mitigation, it's not within their gift to allow on such grounds.

Action:
1. To decide whether to appeal, or pay the discount no later than 17th Feb.
2. If to appeal, then register with the adj. In the narrative box insert ' The grounds of procedural impropriety relate to the failure by the authority in its NOR to advise me correctly in accordance with the regulations of my rights of appeal and of their power as regards issuing a surcharged penalty'
3. As you do not have to register before 3 March if done online, wait for the input of others.

I would also suggest you write to the authority to give them an early 'heads up' regarding the NOR and invite their comments. It is SO, SO, SO much better to be able to put their response(or failure to respond) to an adjudicator.

I could draft the paragraph you need for this.

But your first decision is whether to pay or risk the discount.
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elvas
post Tue, 5 Feb 2019 - 12:36
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hcandersen a draft paragraph would be great so I can send it to the council and see what happens. This still gives us time should the missus decide to just pay it. Thanks a lot everyone!
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