NIP RULES Options

[Hamill142]

Hi all

New to the forum.

I hope this is the right place to start this thread, apologies in advance if not.

I understand that there are a few circumstances whereby a person must be given a NIP either verbally or in writing for certain offences. What I'd like to find out is can someone point me in the direction of where I can find out which offences require an NIP to be given and the rules surrounding this.

I am based in Scotland, if that makes a difference?

Many thanks in advance for any time or help given

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[The Rookie]

The list of offences requiring a warning or NIP is in Schedule 1 of the road traffic offenders act 1988, note that a 'NIP given verbally' is not seen as a NIP in the legislation but as a warning (though commonly referred to as a verbal NIP for convenience)
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/53/schedule/1
If column three in the table mentions section 1 (the section of the act defining a warning/NIP) then that offence requires one.
No different in Scotland to the rest of the UK.

To clarify, where a NIP is sent by post the 'person' in question is the driver (who they most probably don't know the identity of) OR the registered keeper, to satisfy the requirement a NIP doesn't have to be sent to the driver at all. Usually it's best to define who/what a 'person' is in law to get the right answer!

Does this relate to an actual case, or is it a casual enquiry? It would help to be more specific if you want advice rather than just the legislation, details such as the alleged offence, stopped at the time, was there an accident (within the meaning of the act which may not be the same as in common parlance), is the 'keeper' of the car the registered keeper or not and is there a recent purchase/house move involved for example.
If this is a case, this is the right forum, if it's a casual enquiry a Mod will move it to the 'flame pit' forum for discussion, you can ask for this using the !REPORT button bottom left of your post.

The 'rules' (law) are also in the RTOA 1988
Requirement for a warning/NIP or other form of communication (summons or complaint (Scotland))
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/53/section/1
and section 2 for supplementary details
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/53/section/2

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 04:21

[Hamill142]

Does this relate to an actual case, or is it a casual enquiry? It would help to be more specific if you want advice rather than just the legislation, details such as the alleged offence, stopped at the time, was there an accident (within the meaning of the act which may not be the same as in common parlance),

The 'rules' (law) are also in the RTOA 1988
Requirement for a warning/NIP or other form of communication (summons or complaint (Scotland))
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/53/section/1
and section 2 for supplementary details
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/53/section/2

Thanks for those links, they were somewhat helpful and I need to try and re-read and note down certain points to be able to understand it more I feel.

I have highlighted in bold a part of your reply. What do you mean by this?

[666]

No NIP is required if an accident "owing to the presence on a road of the vehicle in respect of which the offence was committed" occurred. Note that the offender's vehicle doesn't have to have made contact.

[Hamill142]

It does relate to an actual case thats happened to one of my kids.


a few years ago My daughter was given a 1 yr driving ban and ordered to resit an extended driving test before being granted a license again. This was due to a bent ex copper and his wife, who we knew personally and have had major fallouts with due to business rivalries reported her for dangerous driving when she was driving home one night from seeing family. They accused her of driving right at them out of a junction, crossing the central reservation and causing them to take evasive action to avoid a collision. My daughter had been driving since she was 17yrs old having passed her test first time with no faults. She would not do something like this. She had never even had a speeding/parking ticket before this.

They got a witness to say they were also there and were driving a car behind. The witness conveiniently was the daughter of the complainers best friend.

It went to sheriff court and honestly I dunno how my daughter got banned when there were so many things the complainants said which didnt make sense. My daughter wasn't even allowed to speak. she was restricted to near enough one word answers as everytime she tried to say anything the judge told her to stop and twice threatened that if she continued she'd be held in contempt.

The "independent" witness evidence consisted of: "I dunno, I just felt like the lights were too close to me" when asked if she thought the vehicle had crossed the central reservation and been driven at her and the other cars on the road.

The reason I asked about the NIP is because it was 16 days after the alleged offence before the police called her and the officer said he had to speak to her in relation to a complaint which had been made that he had to deal with. He asked her to come into the station so that he could speak with her in relation to the incident. She went in the next evening on her own and was charged with dangerous driving.

Her ban is now over but she hasn't applied for her license again and doesn't intend to. She now suffers from depression and she has totally changed due to being charged with a crime she didnt commit all due to this couple and their bitterness.

What I feel is unfair is this isn't an open an shut case and theres a lot to the back story.

One of the things she tried to point out to the judge was that the couple had threatened to have her brother stabbed only 2 weeks before they accused her of dangerous driving. Police scotland have a record of this as they made a visit to the couples address and spoke with them in regards to this. The judge would not let her bring this up but when one of the complainants, the wife, brought it up herself and mentioned the police had given her and her husband an OSMAN warning he, asked her if she knew what it meant and commended her on knowing about it when she expalined. Of course she knew what it was her husband was a copper for 20yrs or more!!!
Also surely they would have been given a reverse Osman warning when it was they who threatened to stab my son?


This is why I am asking for your help on the rules surrounding NIPs. I need to help my daughter. I need her to fight her depression and come back to us.

Last week a young woman in our locale, the same age as my daughter commit suicide. I don't want my daughter to end up doing the same.

No NIP is required if an accident "owing to the presence on a road of the vehicle in respect of which the offence was committed" occurred. Note that the offender's vehicle doesn't have to have made contact.

Thanks for you reply

So if an accident occurred even if no contact was made?

What if no accident occurred?

This post has been edited by Hamill142: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 - 14:25

[666]

Did the police attend at the scene? If not, how did they know it was your daughter driving?

[Hamill142]

Did the police attend at the scene? If not, how did they know it was your daughter driving?

No, police did not attend the scene.

They were called by the complainant after the incident at around 1am and the Police called at their home between 2am/3am and took details from them of the incident at that time. Weirdly they attended the complainants address a few days later to collect 2 pre-written statements from them. Both written by the same person it looked like as apparently they both contained very similar wording and had the same spelling mistakes.

A few weeks later one of the officers then attended again at the complainants address to take their statements.


As for your question in regards to identifying the driver.

The complainant named my daughter. The police officer called my daughter on her mobile number as she had dealt with him previously regarding an incident that had happened at her work place - not driving related and completely unrelated to these individuals. This was 16 days after the offence and was the first time they spoke with her in regards to this alleged incident.
What I have always been curious about is this. I have 2 daughters. Theres about 18/19 months between them. Myself and my wife and the girls are constantly asked if they are twins. at the time of the alleged incident the girls worked together in the same workplace for about 6/7yrs and customers who came in every single day could not tell the difference between the two of them. So how did these two people identify her with complete certainty in a car, at night with only the dim street lighting??
How could they say definitively it was her and not her sister?

Is it the usual practise to contact the accused like that or should a notice have been sent to the registered keeper and the driver traced like that?

This post has been edited by Hamill142: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 - 14:22

[southpaw82]

Are you seeking to understand the NIP rules to try to get your daughter’s conviction overturned or just out of curiosity? If the former, I doubt that’s possible now (though I’m not an expert in Scots law).

[The Rookie]

Usually the Police officer writes the statement which is then signed by the witness, that would explain the similar writing and wording and errors.

What exactly was she charged with, it sounds like it was dangerous driving from the sentencing? In which case a warning under Section one RTOA is required, however if not raised at trial it’s assumed to be complied with. So if your daughter or her solicitor (which she really should have had for a DD charge) didn’t raise it, the fact the Police failed to comply wouldn’t be relevant.

Did she plead not guilty and it go to trial? Your account is very disjointed, if she plead not guilty did she give her own evidence as witness? Clearly in a trial you can’t interrupt, there is a time to speak and a time not to.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 - 14:48

[Hamill142]

Are you seeking to understand the NIP rules to try to get your daughter’s conviction overturned or just out of curiosity? If the former, I doubt that’s possible now (though I’m not an expert in Scots law).

Both really. But I also hope that I can somehow help her. How can something like this happen to someone all because of a grudge? Naively I thought the justice system was abit more robust to stop this from happening to an innocent person. I thought they'd take into account the backstory and see through the complaint for what it was. A way to get back at us as her parents for putting them out of business twice.

[The Rookie]

Well perhaps if you fill in all the very obvious gaps we can help, but the at least 4 weeks since she was presumably convicted probably means an appeal is no longer an option.

So can you answer all the questions you’ve not answered?

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 - 15:00

[Hamill142]

Ok, I'll do my best to try and clear things up. Apologies if previous replies have caused any confusion.

Usually the Police officer writes the statement which is then signed by the witness, that would explain the similar writing and wording and errors.

- Exactly, but this didn't happen until weeks later. The similar wording, writing and errors were in the 1st statements. The pre-written ones the complainants provided the police with the next day. As I mentioned before the male complainant was an ex copper. He's also a convicted drug dealer and also charged with an offence relating to the secrets act.
So I suspect HE has typed up both statements, 1 for him and 1 for his wife - these were the pre-written statements I mentioned. The only reason I mention this as it was something my daughters lawyer brought up with us before court and said it was odd that they had written statements themselves and give them to police instead of police taking their statement verbally while writing it up in their PDAs at the same time.

What exactly was she charged with, it sounds like it was dangerous driving from the sentencing? In which case a warning under Section one RTOA is required, however if not raised at trial it’s assumed to be complied with. So if your daughter or her solicitor (which she really should have had for a DD charge) didn’t raise it, the fact the Police failed to comply wouldn’t be relevant.

- You are correct. She was charged with Dangerous driving. The warning/NIP was never given. She was only spoken to 2 days after the NIP period had expired. This was not raised in court however even though her lawyers knew full well the dates of the incident and the date she was contacted. They did not point it out nor did she know it was relevant. It's only through reading these forums that I have been made aware of it. Her lawyers were useless. The one who took all the info from her didnt even represent her. It was another partner from the firm and he was so unprepared he couldn't even get basic facts of the case correct. Facts that she had provided them with on more than one occassion.

Did she plead not guilty and it go to trial? Your account is very disjointed, if she plead not guilty did she give her own evidence as witness? Clearly in a trial you can’t interrupt, there is a time to speak and a time not to.

- Which parts are disjointed and need reworked? I'll try my best to sort it out.

- Yes she plead not guilty and it went to trial. She tried to give evidence as her own witness but this is where I was explaining that the sheriff kept interupting her and stopping her and saying she was not allowed to continue and would be held in contempt. She only spoke when she was giving evidence. For the rest of the trial she remained silent. She only spoke when asked so please don't think she was interupting the sheriff or other witnesses. That's my fault for not making that clearer in my previous reply.

Well perhaps if you fill in all the very obvious gaps we can help, but the at least 4 weeks since she was presumably convicted probably means an appeal is no longer an option.

- She asked her lawyer at the time about appealing but he said there would be no point as the sheriff had not believed her this time and if she appealed it she could end up with a longer ban and a bigger fine.
Can something not be done under the miscarriage of justice?

So can you answer all the questions you’ve not answered?

- I have tried my best to answer the questions you've put to me above. If there's anything I've missed or needs further explanation then let me know and I'll try my best to provide more info or clean up previous replies.


I'd like to say thanks aswell to those replying to me and trying to get to the bottom of this. I really appreciate you all giving your free time to read and respond to my posts and apologise if my wording above or layout has confused things or made it hard/time consuming to read or keep up. Sometimes I just get so sucked in by the sadness and disappointment I feel in not being able to help her sooner.

This post has been edited by Hamill142: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 - 15:59

[southpaw82]

If this has gone to trial then she’s had her chance to put her case forward and has either failed to do so or her case was not believed. If the time limit has passed for an appeal then that’s that - absent some really compelling evidence of fraud. If you think you have a good case go and see a Scottish lawyer.

[cp8759]

If this is to be pursued, I would suggest your daughter needs new representation. I don't know what Scots law says about a defendant who's lawyer has been negligent in the conduct of the trial, that's something I'd want to ask.

[Hamill142]

If this has gone to trial then she’s had her chance to put her case forward and has either failed to do so or her case was not believed. If the time limit has passed for an appeal then that’s that - absent some really compelling evidence of fraud. If you think you have a good case go and see a Scottish lawyer.

I've tried. No one wants to touch us. The first question I get asked by all of the solicitors I have called since is "Why don't you get the lawyer you used at trial to do it". Once you explain they're not interested.

My daughter has ended up in hospital because of this. She no longer works because of her depression. She stopped eating and ended up so ill she was bed bound for 6months.

As a parent I NEED to do something.

If this is to be pursued, I would suggest your daughter needs new representation. I don't know what Scots law says about a defendant who's lawyer has been negligent in the conduct of the trial, that's something I'd want to ask.

Thank you. I'll go and research this now.

This post has been edited by Hamill142: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 - 16:04

[Ocelot]

AIUI, the Police should have sent a NIP for that offence (assuming no accident) within 14 days (as long as it was practicable to do so - ie assuming they were aware of the incident at the time).

I'm not sure how that helps retrospectively, however.

[cp8759]

Well there's two possibilities: the case is a mess and it's not worth the hassle for any of the lawyers you've been to see, or you don't have a viable case.

[TMC Towcester]

For fee-greedy lawyers not to touch it there is a message there for the case I suggest? There's another non-Scots case on here for DD where a lawyer is prepared to take on a completely lost cause...................

[cp8759]

The intrinsic likelihood is that the case is not viable.

I know of someone who had a case that was likely to lose, but the solicitor told the party concerned that if against advice they wanted to proceed regardless, for a £5 down-payment they'd get the ball rolling. If lawyers are refusing to take on a paying client, that suggests there's really no hope at all.

[The Rookie]

When was the conviction, as above the fact you asked 4 weeks ago suggests you are well out of time normally to appeal.

So while you feel you NEED to do something, that something may well have been some time ago and now it’s simply too late.