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York Council PCN, Rules regarding signage and residential zones
sophie.turner
post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 09:39
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Hello, looking for some advice. I've been reading through several threads but can't find an exact match to my circumstances.

Summary: Got ticket on a residential area with no white parking bay markings or Signage nearby on either side of road. Got ticket, proof shows SINGLE signage far away saying 'residential zone beyond this point'. The only sign was at entrance to busy junction with cycling lane and lots of traffic, easily missed. no other signage on other end of the road which lead to a Park and footbridge over the river.

Initial appeal rejected without even reviewing the video of appeal evidence. No reply sent to appeal, only found out about rejection when Notification to Owner letter sent. Is there a rule that they need to send the letter within 30 days?

Should I appeal and risk missing chance to pay half. Don't know if they are allowed to simply put ONE signage at entrance and no parking bay markings.Feel cheated. Any advice regarding rules is appreciated.

I can provide any additional information required. thanks in advance
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post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 09:39
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cp8759
post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 09:45
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Read this in full http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=125502

Then update your post with the documents, council evidence and google street view link.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 14:14
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 10:45) *
Read this in full http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=125502

Then update your post with the documents, council evidence and google street view link.


Show us all docs. we recently won on the signage ay a permit zone


https://1drv.ms/b/s!AtBHPhdJdppVsys01A0se5eBP3i4


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sophie.turner
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 12:24
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Hi, Please find attached the documentation including parking ticket. Furthermore feel they have not providentially reviewed the information as any Correspondence keeps being sent to the Owner rather than the driver. They have not even accessed the download link for the video evidence I had sent for appeal.

Thanks SO MUCH in advance for any help.

Attached -

1. PCN - Front
2. PCN - Back
3. Photo evidence of incident captured by parking attendant
4.Google map - Orange Dot where the car war parked, RED arrow where the evidence pic - 3.5 was taken and direction it was facing

If attached photos are unclear, can anyone suggest how to attach pics larger than 1.95MB

Add to previous post - No signage anywhere on that road nearby except the only sign shown in pic - 3.5. No parking bay markings of any kind.

Thanks
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cp8759
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 12:37
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There's a regulation 3(2)(b)(ii) flaw on the PCN. You can upload pictures to an external site like imgur.com and either post a link, or use the BB codes to embed the images.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 12:39
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We have absolutely no idea of where you are up to. Post the Notice to owner urgently. We also need to see your challenge and the rejection but NTO you could be out of time.

As regards the contravention IMO no chance, you were only about 70 metres away from a legal road sign that is not obscured or poorly placed, but there may be technical reasons that can win.

Use an external hosting site such as imgur to post the docs


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sophie.turner
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 14:50
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 13:37) *
There's a regulation 3(2)(b)(ii) flaw on the PCN. You can upload pictures to an external site like imgur.com and either post a link, or use the BB codes to embed the images.


Hi, what is the regulation flaw on the PCN. How does it help my case? Thanks
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sophie.turner
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 15:28
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 13:39) *
We have absolutely no idea of where you are up to. Post the Notice to owner urgently. We also need to see your challenge and the rejection but NTO you could be out of time.

As regards the contravention IMO no chance, you were only about 70 metres away from a legal road sign that is not obscured or poorly placed, but there may be technical reasons that can win.

Use an external hosting site such as imgur to post the docs



01/05/2019 - PCN incident took place
14/05/2019 - Informal appeal - made within 14 days of incident
Informal appeal rejected at some point but no letter received to confirm this
06/06/2019 - Notification to Owner letter dated - received 08/06/2019
20/06/2019 - Reply to NtO letter mentioning having no other correspondence
01/07/2019 - Attached pic - Dated letter received on 04/07/2019 - Giving opportunity to pay reduced fine within 14 day period (today last day)

I have till 28/07/2019 to make the appeal to adjudication.

Regarding the evidence signage, the sign was at the start of the street. I don't know what the legal allowed distance is but it was facing away from the direction from where we had parked and unless we walked up to the sign it could not have been seen. There was no similar signage at the other end of the road, which was the direction we had parked in. Side streets had residential parking signage but not this road. I calculated using google maps that the signage was about 100m away.

Also, this road had a lot of bicycles at the inter junction where the signage was placed because it was leading from a park and foot bridge to cross the river (like a cycle highway). I was conscious about them while turning where the signage was place. And there was a van coming in the other direction that may have blocked my view of the signage. I can't be sure at the time.

Thanks for your advice in advance. Response letter attached to this message.

Response letter Attached to this message.

This post has been edited by sophie.turner: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 15:29
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Attached File  Parking_appeal___S_Pobbathi.pdf ( 882.14K ) Number of downloads: 4
 
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 16:15
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Nothing is making sense post every document you have from the council and every letter you sent to them (in chronological order) What you have posted cannot be a notice of rejection that gives the opportunity to make an appeal to the TPT. There are grounds to appeal but we need to get to the bottom of everything


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sophie.turner
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 20:01
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Hi Thanks for your reply. Please find attached all the letters that have come from York Council. Letter dated 15th May only sent after Notice to Owner as I had not received it. It was attached to the letter dated 01/07/2019.

Notification to Owner Letter - https://imgur.com/a/nTKXceX https://imgur.com/5sQ3lwQ
Response to appeal - https://imgur.com/pC40qcz https://imgur.com/lUjHTzc
(With response to appeal attached copy of first appeal rejection letter, not received) - (attached copy of first appeal rejection letter, not received) - https://imgur.com/09s7PRx https://imgur.com/7e92KrT

Thanks in advance
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 20:53
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Did you make representations against the notice to owner? If yes where are they?


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hcandersen
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 20:54
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OP can we cut to the chase and focus on the substantive issues:

You were parked in an area where parking places are reserved to res permit holders;
You did not display such a permit;
The sign indicating the restriction is placed where it should be;
You received a NTO and did not submit reps within the 28-day period which ended on 7 July, instead you wrote to the authority regarding their response to your informal reps. Presumably you did this because you were not aware that when you received the NTO you had to comply with its instructions irrespective of any prior challenge. This is because although the PCN was required to state this, it did not.

Luckily for you they extended the time allowed to submit reps to 16 July.
You have missed this date as well.(we could have helped you but you did not post the docs promptly and instead let nearly 2 weeks elapse before doing so during which time their offer to submit reps had lapsed).

Your options are:
To pay the penalty, or
To submit reps.

If the penalty is still £70 then you might be better off paying. If it's £105 the definitely pay.
Alternatively if it's still £70 you could submit reps TOMORROW and apologise for being late and explain why.

And as for:
Butcher terrance is very popular with cyclist crossing the bridge over the river and there were cycleist and a large van at the intersection between Butcher Terrace and Bishopthorpe Rd. As mentioned earlier, this is my first time in this area...

The obvious contradiction in your statement is that you appear to be very well versed on cyclists in an area you've not visited before.

Anyway, this is not the issue.

You have strong procedural grounds IF they accept late reps, but they have every reason not to.
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sophie.turner
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 09:39
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hi hcandersen,

Thank you for replying back. Yes I messed up trying to at put a response together.

The fine is still £70 can I make reps, if so how do I approach it?

Regarding cyclists, you are correct. All the information I am suggesting is in hindsight of the incident after seeing the area. There is only one foot bridge to cross for a fair distance.

This post has been edited by sophie.turner: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 09:42
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hcandersen
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 10:48
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Submit reps.

On *** I turned into *** from **** and did not see any sign regulating parking. I parked at the location none the wiser that parking was restricted to resident permit holders only. I was issued with a PCN.

After the event I retraced my steps and found that there were signs at the entrance. I am a diligent driver and therefore it is clearly possible to miss these, I suspect because of their placement - at this junction a driver's attention is prioritised towards the safety of other road users e.g. cars, pedestrians and, as I now know and what might have been a factor at the time, cyclists etc.

You were kind enough to extend the period for making reps and I hope that this slight delay would not prevent you from considering these and exercising your discretion.

Thank you


All you want is to get a Notice of Rejection ( maybe they'll even accept!) and on reflection I cannot see anything to be gained by putting them on alert with the procedural argument which you are free to introduce and argue at adjudication should this becomes necessary.
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cp8759
post Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 00:30
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 11:48) *
All you want is to get a Notice of Rejection ( maybe they'll even accept!) and on reflection I cannot see anything to be gained by putting them on alert with the procedural argument which you are free to introduce and argue at adjudication should this becomes necessary.

I wholly agree with that.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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sophie.turner
post Thu, 25 Jul 2019 - 15:06
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Update: Thank you for your reply. I wanted to update the post.

I have sent a response along the lines mentioned above immediately after you mentioned it using the council's online response email. I have called up to make sure they have received the late reps email on the 19th July. The person on the phone mentioned off hand that the ticket was still eligible for late reps and that the council backroom staff had 56 days to send a response. My understanding is that it is at that point they either accept or reject; when they issue the Notice of Rejection which can be taken to appeal.

It's on hold until the back office make a decision. Is this correct procedure? If I do get the Notice of Rejection, what arguments can be made at the tribunal to challenge the PCN. Do I need to produce further new information for the original objection to be considered.

Thanks in advance.
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John U.K.
post Thu, 25 Jul 2019 - 16:15
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QUOTE
It's on hold until the back office make a decision.

Have you had confirmation of this in writing?
If not, ask the person you spoke to to confirm by e-mail.

What is the online status of the PCN?
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sophie.turner
post Thu, 25 Jul 2019 - 20:41
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Thanks. Yes I'll phone up tomorrow and ask for that in writing.
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