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S172 & Speeding offence advice - notices served to previous address
Buttons2812
post Thu, 14 Jan 2021 - 20:14
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Hi all, new to this forum, looking for some advice.

On 07/01/21 my husband recieved a further steps notice from Cheshire courts office. The letter said he had defaulted on a £800 fine, but no other details. This was a shock to us as we had no idea of a fine. He called the court office and they explained it was for a speeding offence & a failure to identify driver offence which had gone to court already. They advised that because my husband had no idea of the offences up until this date (it transpires that the letters were going to our previous address, we moved in July), he could submit a statutory declaration.

My husband changed his address on his insurance in late July and driving licence in early June. He thought he had submitted a change of address for the v5 online, but he never recieved any confirmation after completing the online form, and a few months later in early November we checked and found it was still registered to the same address, so he posted it the next day.

Of course, my husband admits to the speeding, he was going 38 in a 30, and he has a vague idea of the day it was because he remembers spotting a camera car, so he knows he did it. The issue is the failure to identify driver, my husband would have provided all the necessary information had he known about the offence, but he genuinely had no idea until we recieved the further steps notice.

My question is what to do now. He is going to plead guilty to the speeding offence as he is, but he wants to know what can be done about the failure to identify charge. Obviously he was responsible for changing his address and he didn't do that (despite trying, we can't prove he applied online though because we have no email confirmation of the application as it obviously didn't go through), but he would have provided the information if he had the opportunity. Is there any way we can get the failure to identify charge dropped now he has admitted being guilty to the speeding offence?

We really want to avoid going to court (and risking losing) due to the cost implications, times are tough ATM and we are short on money, the fine is bad enough. The lady at the fines office seemed to imply that he would be able to admit to the speeding offence and take the fine and 3 points and have the failure to identify charge dropped as it went to the wrong address, but she wasn't clear on how.

Any one have any advice on what to do.before I returned home today he already replied to the email and pleaded guilty to the speeding offence and not guilty to the failure to identify offence explaining that he did not have the opportunity to do so because the letter was sent to the wrong address.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. What would happen if he is found guilty of both if he did go to court, would it be 6 or 9 points for both offences? (He currently has a clean licence).
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post Thu, 14 Jan 2021 - 20:14
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southpaw82
post Tue, 26 Jan 2021 - 14:05
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 26 Jan 2021 - 13:42) *
My opinion is that while foolish it doesn’t amount to a ‘legal’ confession in that there was no caution beforehand. I doubt they will try to use it against him.

I don’t think they’ll try and use it against him either but I’m not sure the lack of a caution (by a person who doesn’t have to give one anyway) is a ground to attack it.


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NewJudge
post Tue, 26 Jan 2021 - 15:06
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QUOTE (Buttons2812 @ Tue, 26 Jan 2021 - 13:37) *
He asked about the plea deal but was told it would have to be struck on the day in person as it's at the magistrates discression.

It isn't at the Magistrates' discretion. The decision which charges to lay rests with the prosecutor. The Magistrates deal with whatever charges are put.

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Buttons2812
post Tue, 26 Jan 2021 - 15:20
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 26 Jan 2021 - 13:42) *
My opinion is that while foolish it doesn’t amount to a ‘legal’ confession in that there was no caution beforehand. I doubt they will try to use it against him.


Thank you, she said the magistrate will review the phone call, so I guess we can now only wait and see. The fact that she accepted the not guilty plea and even went onto say when asked that a plea day can be struck on the day suggests exactly what you said above.

It's so frustrating as he just said it (I think he was in stress mode as the lady on the phone was pushing him for a reason), and it just came out. He knows it was foolish, but what can you do, can't take it back now.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 26 Jan 2021 - 15:41
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She’s not in a position to ‘accept the plea’, she receives it and passes it on.

My wording was bad, but there are a number of legal issues with trying to use it as a confession, all pretty meaningless as it’s unlikely they will try.


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Buttons2812
post Tue, 26 Jan 2021 - 16:01
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 26 Jan 2021 - 15:41) *
She’s not in a position to ‘accept the plea’, she receives it and passes it on.

My wording was bad, but there are a number of legal issues with trying to use it as a confession, all pretty meaningless as it’s unlikely they will try.


Ah I see what you mean. Yea she did say she would pass the pleas on and the magistrate would consider the evidence.

So for reference with regards to the plea deal now, despite his slight foolish mistake on the stat Dec phone call, on the day of court he arrives early and asks to speak to the prosecuted in charge of traffic offences, then asks whether a plea deal would be considered? Anything else of note? Also if the plea is not accepted what then?
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TMC Towcester
post Tue, 26 Jan 2021 - 16:51
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As others have said - not a catastrophe (probably). They may have asked to ascertain that he was the driver and thus a deal could be done - be optimistic.

As you state, going along a little early, find the clerk dealing with motoring offences (as one in a gown with an armful of papers for the right person) and he offers to please G to the speeding offence if they drop the FTF.

Folk have been on this Forum longer than me but I'm pretty ure no-one has ever come back and said the deal wasn't done.
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NewJudge
post Tue, 26 Jan 2021 - 19:59
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QUOTE (Buttons2812 @ Tue, 26 Jan 2021 - 15:20) *
Thank you, she said the magistrate will review the phone call, so I guess we can now only wait and see.


I would be extremely surprised, to say the least, if the phone call - either a recording or a transcript - got anywhere near the Magistrates. It will only do so if your husband's "deal" is rejected and the prosecutions for both charges continue to a trial.

The long and the short of this is that the SD has been accepted, the conviction has been set aside and not guilty pleas have been entered to both offences. A police prosecutor will pick up the file - probably on the day of the hearing - and that's all he or she will see. The prosecutor will be quite prepared for the "deal" to be offered. There is no reason for the phone call to be mentioned at all. In the very unlikely chance that they do decide to rely on your husband's "confession" to being the driver in order to convict him of speeding they will have to disclose that fact to him so that he can consider it before he faces trial. In all honesty I don't think there's a chance of that happening.

I don't know why he was given the impression that such a course was likely because in my view it's not.
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andy_foster
post Tue, 26 Jan 2021 - 20:18
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QUOTE (Buttons2812 @ Tue, 26 Jan 2021 - 16:01) *
Also if the plea is not accepted what then?


On the face of it he has little chance of defending the s. 172 charge and they have insufficient evidence to convict him on the speeding charge. In the unlikely event of the prosecution being unwilling to do a deal, I would suggest pleading guilty to the charge that would be difficult to defend and not guilty to the charge that they would have difficulty proving.

Basically, if the prosecutor won't do a deal, he's facing 6 points for the s. 172 offence. Unless he pleads guilty to the speeding, or allows himself to be rail roaded into giving evidence (he does not have to give evidence) that should be all the points. However, if the prosecution won't drop the s. 172 and he pleads guilty to the speeding (or gives evidence and is asked if he was the driver) he can get another 3 points for his trouble.

QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Tue, 26 Jan 2021 - 16:51) *
Folk have been on this Forum longer than me but I'm pretty ure no-one has ever come back and said the deal wasn't done.


We have heard of one case where the accused got a bit (a lot) cocky and started telling the prosecutor what was what. Strangely enough the prosecutor did not feel inclined to let the accused get away with a lesser punishment and declined to do the deal.


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Buttons2812
post Sun, 14 Feb 2021 - 18:01
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Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the advice. Court hearing is tomorrow afternoon at 15:30, my husband is aiming to get there an hour before.

He is going to ask to speak to the prosecuter for traffic and speeding offences and ask for the deal.

I have a couple of questions in case things dont go to plan:

Firstly, although my husband is attending court in person, with Covid there is a risk that the other people (such as the prosecuter) may not be attending in person, and may be there on video link. If this is the case, how do we proceed with the plea deal? Does heask to speak to them beforehand still and try to call them? Or does he ask for the deal when in the courtroom? If he asks in the courtroom, does he address this to the prosecuter?

Secondly, if they were not to accept this deal, and went ahead with both cases, would he be able to not give any evidence at all? I assume they can only convict him for the ftf offence if they have no proof he is the driver? How would he go about this? When asked to give evidence does he politely decline?

I would greatly appreciate some advice on this, thanks in advance.
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The Rookie
post Sun, 14 Feb 2021 - 18:15
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If he can’t do it before hand, then when asked in the hearing how he pleads he says, to start with not guilty to both but that he would plead guilty to speeding as long as the failing to furnish is dropped.

If they agree, all well and good, if they won’t then immediately change the failing to furnish plea to guilty to get the sentencing discount.


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southpaw82
post Sun, 14 Feb 2021 - 18:24
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He doesn’t have to give evidence in his own defence, no.


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The Rookie
post Sun, 14 Feb 2021 - 19:31
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If they did pursue the speeding (they won’t) he doesn’t have to give evidence, he just asks the prosecution what proof they have he was driving, they don’t have any, so he would then ask the magistrates to dismiss it for lack of evidence.


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Buttons2812
post Mon, 15 Feb 2021 - 14:31
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Hi everyone,

He has just shown up at court super early, and has been told the prosecuter is not present but is appearing via video link due to Covid. He has asked if he can speak to them beforehand, but not looking likely.

Does this basically mean he has to ask for the plea deal in the courtroom? He is worried that he won't be given the chance to.
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TMC Towcester
post Mon, 15 Feb 2021 - 14:42
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Yes - sometimes this happens anyway, pre-Covid.

He must be asked how he pleads (hard to have a trial otherwise!) at which point he says his piece.
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Buttons2812
post Mon, 15 Feb 2021 - 14:44
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QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Mon, 15 Feb 2021 - 14:42) *
Yes - sometimes this happens anyway, pre-Covid.

He must be asked how he pleads (hard to have a trial otherwise!) at which point he says his piece.


Thank you, just very stressful and I think he (and me) are panicking. I'll let him know.
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TMC Towcester
post Mon, 15 Feb 2021 - 14:49
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We assume you now have a correct V5?.......................
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Buttons2812
post Mon, 15 Feb 2021 - 15:15
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QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Mon, 15 Feb 2021 - 14:49) *
We assume you now have a correct V5?.......................


He has had a correct v5 since early November (he changed it as soon as he found it and noticed it was the wrong address). It got lost amongst paperwork whilst we were moving so that's why I suspect he forgot about it, it was a stressful time and he is an out of sight out of mind type.
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Buttons2812
post Mon, 15 Feb 2021 - 17:19
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Just want to say thanks to everyone on here who has given us advice over the past month. The outcome was what we had hoped for.

My husband didn't manage to speak to the prosecuter before going into the court room. When he went in he was met by an usher and the prosecuter on video link who asked if he had anything to discuss before the magistrates were called In. He put forward his plea deal, they then asked if he had any previous motoring convictions (this was the prosecuter), and after he said no they then accepted his plea deal and called the magistrate in. He walked away with a £100 fine and 3 points.

After the magistrates left the prosecuter actually apologised that it had come to this, and that he couldn't get a speed awareness course as that's what he would have been offered if he recieved the paperwork. He told him to remember to change his address next time and sent him on his way. Great outcome.

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The Rookie
post Mon, 15 Feb 2021 - 18:40
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As expected, but thanks for letting us know.

And well done.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

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TMC Towcester
post Tue, 16 Feb 2021 - 09:20
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Good outcome. Well done fior holding the line!............
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