Moving over a red light line to let an emergency vehicle through Options

[Soadfan1]

So this just happened today, In Walthamstow, London.

Situation was that I was in the right lane of 2 lanes of traffic stationary at a red light. An emergency vehicle sped up behind me flashing and beeping.

After a few second deliberation I made sure evetyhingf was safe and edged forward about 6 yards through the red light into the junction and he sped past and I reversed back again.

At this particular junction there is no other traffic moving into the unction whilst our lights are red so it was not dangerous so to speak.

I just assumed that would obviously be the right thing to do, however since I have read that you can actually be fined for such an event.

Please tell me this isnt true, because it would be disgusting.

Am I likely to receive anything, and can it easily be appealed?

Thanks

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[BaggieBoy]

Was there actually a camera at the location?

[The Slithy Tove]

Was there a red light camera on the junction? If not, they it's unlikely anything will happen. But yes, it is possible to be "done" for what you did. What sort of emergency vehicle was it? If police, one could argue that the flashing and beeping constituted an instruction from a constable to run the light, which would be a defence. Ambulance drivers I thought were now instructed to silence the sirens when caught by stationary traffic at lights in this way, so as not to intimidate the likes of yourself to commit an offence.

[Soadfan1]

No it was Police in an unmarked car. Sirens, beeping and those other chirpy noises.

There is no red light camera there but probably cctv cameras.

Glad to hear its unlikely anything will happen, would really be a kick in the teeth when your intentions are good.

The manoeuvre was very safe as there is no oncoming or turning traffic at the junction.

Thanks

[Korting]

I personally would not move across a traffic light for ANY emergency vehicle, I really dont want the hassle of defending such a charge in court.

You would have to plead guilty and hope the magistrates accept your mitigation, but if they dont then its 3 points, £100+ fine and an increase in your insurance premiums.
And if the Police tried to charge me with Obstruction, that is EXACTLY what I'd say in court.

One other thing: let us say you did move across the lights and for whatever reason there was an accident, it would be presumed to be your fault, or would it be the case that if a Police officer directed you to go across the lights, they would be responsible for making sure it is safe to do so.

[Dwain]

The instruction from the IAM chief examiner is don't cross the line. Simple black and white you as a driver are not allowed to cross the line. If an officer gets out and tells you to, well that's a different matter.

You may have noticed recently that emergency vehicles turn off the sirens when stuck in traffic, this is to prevent drivers feeling forced to move, as you did.

Andy

[Earl Purple]

A police car once had a go at me for not crossing the stop line at a traffic light to let me through. I asked him was he not in a rush now to get to the emergency and he didn't book me but went on his way to where he was originally going.

It is rather a stupid rule though and could only happen here.

Emergency services attending emergencies should take precedence over all else on the road, and ideally there should be a way they can get the traffic lights to change for them.

[cp8759]

No it was Police in an unmarked car. Sirens, beeping and those other chirpy noises.

Police officers in uniform are different to fire brigade and ambulance. A police officer has a legal power to direct you to pass the stop line, and failure to comply with that direction is an offence. If directed to do so by a uniformed officer, you should cross the line, but it's a good idea to make a note of the police vehicle's number plate.

[andy_foster]

If directed to do so by a constable in uniform, no offence is committed.
If a police car has its 'blues and twos' on as it comes up behind you, it would seem to be arguable either way as to whether that was such a direction.
If the driver activates the lights or sirens when it becomes stuck behind you, it would seem difficult to argue that that was anything other than a direction to get out of his way.

Simple black and white you as a driver are not allowed to cross the line.

Such statements are generally made by people who are a bit simple.
If you have a reasonable belief that there is a real likelihood of death or serious injury to a person, and that you can lessen that likelihood by crossing the line, and it is safe to do so, that is a defence (duress of circumstances).

[cp8759]

If directed to do so by a constable in uniform, no offence is committed.
If a police car has its 'blues and twos' on as it comes up behind you, it would seem to be arguable either way as to whether that was such a direction.
If the driver activates the lights or sirens when it becomes stuck behind you, it would seem difficult to argue that that was anything other than a direction to get out of his way.

If in doubt just look, if he wants you to move he will soon gesticulate at you to get out of the way.

[Steve_999]

If directed to do so by a constable in uniform, no offence is committed.
If a police car has its 'blues and twos' on as it comes up behind you, it would seem to be arguable either way as to whether that was such a direction.
If the driver activates the lights or sirens when it becomes stuck behind you, it would seem difficult to argue that that was anything other than a direction to get out of his way.

If in doubt just look, if he wants you to move he will soon gesticulate at you to get out of the way.

But assume that the occifer will likely deny directing you if a collision occurs. Especially if (s)he cannot see if it is safe for you to cross the stop line from their position in their car!

[andy_foster]

If it's not safe, don't go. Simples x

[Dwain]

If directed to do so by a constable in uniform, no offence is committed.
If a police car has its 'blues and twos' on as it comes up behind you, it would seem to be arguable either way as to whether that was such a direction.
If the driver activates the lights or sirens when it becomes stuck behind you, it would seem difficult to argue that that was anything other than a direction to get out of his way.

Simple black and white you as a driver are not allowed to cross the line.

Such statements are generally made by people who are a bit simple.
If you have a reasonable belief that there is a real likelihood of death or serious injury to a person, and that you can lessen that likelihood by crossing the line, and it is safe to do so, that is a defence (duress of circumstances).

I am not simple, however I do understand that whilst sat in a car at a red light I am not in a position to determine if an emergency vehicle is on a life or death run or just going off shift late.I mentioned the IAM chief examiner, personally as an advanced driver/observer and ROSPA Gold holder I adhere to the law. Incidentally at the meet the examiner prior to taking the IAM test this question is raised quite often , the police officer stated that they do not expect drivers to cross the line, he did say they wouldn't procecute drivers that did, however he couldn't guaranteee that if there was a camera the driver wouldn't get 3 points. It's a bit like speeding, an absolute offence, you either did or didn't do it. How the bench treats you is in the lap of the god's.

So it is quite simple, don't do it. Unless of course you are willing to risk 3 points, and bear in mind if you do go before the bench and are found guilty it could be quite expensive.

[Soadfan1]

Ok, so seeing as there is no red light camera there and the car did have its blues and twos on and was beeping me, am I to assume its unlikely anything will happen?

How many offences are brought about via other non typical traffic cameras.

Obviously I would defend it. The very notion that you could get penalised for doing what for all intents and purposes is the right thing is an Orwellian level of disgusting behaviour.

[bill w]

I think I've pointed folks to the Blue Light Aware video in the past, but I hope re-posting the link here again won't do any harm.

[DancingDad]

......….I am not simple, however I do understand that whilst sat in a car at a red light I am not in a position to determine if an emergency vehicle is on a life or death run or just going off shift late.
….

If an emergency with all their blues and twos going is up your chuff, the reasonable assumption is that they have good reason for them, quite likely to be life or death.

[The Slithy Tove]

I think I've pointed folks to the Blue Light Aware video in the past, but I hope re-posting the link here again won't do any harm.

Interesting.

I note it urges you to pull off the road (safely) and not necessarily to stop on the carriageway. Leaving aside the obvious places where you wouldn't do that (blind bends, etc.), it would seem the sensible approach. I like the way they do it in the USA, where you HAVE to stop, even when the emergency vehicle is coming the other way. Works well as long as people do so, and the emergency vehicle has fewer unknows (vehicles making random moves) to contend with, as all traffic is stopped. Mind you, roads tend to be wider and thus normally enough space for the emergency vehicle to get through.

I also notice it gives no advice about when emergency vehicles are trying to get though stationary/near stationary traffic on multi-lane roads, e.g. motorway. They tend to try the "parting of the Red Sea" where they split the lane, getting people to pull over a bit to give enough room down the middle. Maybe it's just obvious from where the emergency vehicle is.

As for "don't enter a bus lane", that's as good advice as don't cross the stop line at a red light, though I wonder if your chances of appealing a Bus Lane PCN at adjudication would be better than persuading a magistrate not to find guilty.

[DancingDad]

...........As for "don't enter a bus lane", that's as good advice as don't cross the stop line at a red light, though I wonder if your chances of appealing a Bus Lane PCN at adjudication would be better than persuading a magistrate not to find guilty.

Many traffic orders have a caveat to the "do not enter" along the lines of except in emergency so I would say better chance with a bus lane then a red light.

[andy_foster]

I am not simple, <...>
It's a bit like speeding, an absolute offence, you either did or didn't do it. How the bench treats you is in the lap of the god's.

You might not be simple, but you clearly don't know what an absolute offence is, or when not to use an apostrophe.

[rd250dx]

another good reason to have dashcams fitted.