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PCN is it legal?, LEGION GROUP
kmr
post Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 10:07
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First of all i am delighted to have the oppertunity to join this great site, thanks to all who have created it, and everyone who participates. blob1.gif
I had to go to my Dentist, severe tooth ache. I had not been for a few years, the car park opposite had always been free as i had parked there for the last 12 years when i visited Prescot. I made an appointment 9.15am, as i entered the car park there was parking charge notices, it was now pay and display! The Knowsley council had not made me aware so obviously i had not taken any change with me! The charge was 50p for an hour or £1 for two hours. Luckily i found 70p in the car and purchased a ticket, i would not have had any time to go and find someone to give me change. My Dentist called me in half an hour late, as a result i was 29 minutes late my ticket had expired, i received a PCN. I wrote to Legion Group and explained the mitigating circumstances, i explained that i had never had a ticket before, in my life time as i always paid. I asked could the charge be waived as the Council had created the situation as to not informing me, also i stated that the delay of my Dentist had also caused the issue of the ticket. Legion Group replied stating that i had to pay. I phoned the Council only to be told "its Legion Group who deal with the parking".

After reading many articles on illegal tickets i ask is this one legal? I notice Traffic regulation act 1984? The wording YOU are therefore liable, There is only the one date?, No imformation as to appealing, Also a 3% charge to pay by card. I would apprecite any advice regarding the ticket and what i should do. I attatch a copy of the ticket. Hopefully if it is illegal then any one who receives a ticket from Legion Group will also know what to do, greatly appreciated kmr.
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post Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 10:07
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qafqa
post Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 10:19
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That's an interesting 'PCN' - could you rotate it 90 degrees anticlockwise so it is easier to read and
if there is any text on the back of the 'PCN' can you also upload a picture of it, thanks.

There is a way to post a larger version of the 'PCN', other pictures and documents in the thread by
using a photo hosting site such as ImageShack, the details are here:
How to Format, Resize and Post Images in a Forum Thread
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?autoco...ticle&id=16

This post has been edited by qafqa: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 10:50
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Gan
post Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 11:07
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That is very interesting - they've called it a Parking Charge Notice which is a PPC term.

They've also made the driver responsible not the owner.

Raises an interesting question - it's not a genuine PCN so it can't go down the NTO etc route. Would they, however, risk court with it ?

http://www.legion-group.co.uk/default.asp

This post has been edited by Gan: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 11:10
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emanresu
post Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 11:12
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http://www.sthelensreporter.co.uk/news/loc..._park_1_3549688

Its a council using a PPC model for an off-street car park. Have only seen this in London at residential blocks. Must be a first - or a new outsourcing version that may become more widespread.

RANT ON

It really p****s me off when "Accountable Authorities" deliberately use business models which allows them to side step their statutory responsibility. If there is anything worse than a PPC, its a council acting as a PPC.

If you live in the area, see when the Knowsley's audit is due and get a copy of the contract.

RANT OVER
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kmr
post Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 11:25
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Thanks all, if you click on the pic of the ticket it will enlarge

No there is nothing on the back of the ticket, thanks qafqa
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Gan
post Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 11:54
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QUOTE (emanresu @ Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 12:12) *
http://www.sthelensreporter.co.uk/news/loc..._park_1_3549688

Its a council using a PPC model for an off-street car park. Have only seen this in London at residential blocks. Must be a first - or a new outsourcing version that may become more widespread.

RANT ON

It really p****s me off when "Accountable Authorities" deliberately use business models which allows them to side step their statutory responsibility. If there is anything worse than a PPC, its a council acting as a PPC.

If you live in the area, see when the Knowsley's audit is due and get a copy of the contract.

RANT OVER



Isn't the MK-Vinci partnership following a similar model ?

What concerns me is the repeated reference to the Traffic Management Acts. It leaves the situation unclear about the legal position of Legion and the tickets - no doubt deliberate.

If the council have sub-contracted everything to Legion, is this a de-criminalised enforcement system with a big gap or does it go as far as Admin of Justice offences ?

Can't find any threads of a Legion Group ticket with a decent letter chain and outcome
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bama
post Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 13:49
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hmm,
AIUI there is some complex law (decisions) with regard to councils contracting out services, notably in the area of care homes.

This one does look fishy.
And bearing in mind the other instances we see of of councils contracting out parking under some PPP deal this bears some investigation.
Looks to me that they are trying to bypass the rules that bind councils.

and...
Get the TRO from the council.


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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kmr
post Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 14:49
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QUOTE (kmr @ Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 12:25) *
Thanks all, if you click on the pic of the ticket it will enlarge

No there is nothing on the back of the ticket, thanks qafqa

If i wrote to the council and explained the circumstances and enclosed a cheque for £1 to more than cover their losses could this be a fix? Unfortunately i am not in the position to pay £25 or £40 whatever it is, as i am unemployed.
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bama
post Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 15:05
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belay that idea. its an admission.


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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kmr
post Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 15:29
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QUOTE (bama @ Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 16:05) *
belay that idea. its an admission.

I have already admitted in my appeal, as i thought they where human beings, i thought with it being genuinely not my fault and given that it was a first offence, honesty, honestly doesnt pay as i continue to find out icon_hang.gif
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bama
post Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 15:34
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post up the exact text that you sent them.


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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southpaw82
post Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 17:28
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So this is an ECN, right?


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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qafqa
post Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 17:53
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Is it possible for you to photograph any signs in and around the car park and post them here kmr?
The information on them will be very helpful.

With reference to the above post #12 by southpaw82 and your first post mentioning the
Traffic regulation act 1984, put ECN into the forum search box and the posts show the risk of
court action if the ticket is genuine.

This post has been edited by qafqa: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 21:13
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Gan
post Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 17:56
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Can a council delegate enforcement of RTRA offences to a private company ?
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southpaw82
post Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 17:59
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QUOTE (Gan @ Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 18:56) *
Can a council delegate enforcement of RTRA offences to a private company ?


As long as it appoints them correctly as parking attendants.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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mickR
post Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 18:02
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Gan your inbox is full mail waiting. wink.gif
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emanresu
post Mon, 18 Jul 2011 - 07:34
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This can't be an ECN as it has an appeal to Legion. This is the same as an NCP one and should be brought to the notice of the Trading Standards for mis-representation.

See if you can get a copy of the contract. Bet its a zero-fee one.
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qafqa
post Mon, 18 Jul 2011 - 08:45
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QUOTE
This can't be an ECN as it has an appeal to Legion.

Thanks for clearing that up emanresu, it was looking like a legitimate
ticket issued by an authorised person as part of an enterprise run jointly
with the council.

The Legion name and logo reminded me of the honourable history of the
company which gave the PCN further credibility.

"Legion Group has a long and distinguished history dating back to 1921, when the British Legion was formed to help the many disabled and jobless veterans from World War I. Local British Legion branches offering parking services to small car parks began to take root around the country, and in 1928 these local charities were brought together and incorporated into The Royal British Legion Attendants Company Trust (RBLACT)."
(legion-group.co.uk/page/94/Our-Heritage.htm)

And now it has morphed into just another PPC.

This post has been edited by qafqa: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 - 08:53
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Gan
post Mon, 18 Jul 2011 - 09:03
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I'm suspicious that it calls itself a Parking Charge Notice not an Excess Charge

There shouldn't be any appeal to Legion - just straight off to the magistrates.

The phrase "to recover the sum owed" is PPC speak. If it went to the magistrates it would simply be a fine.
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kmr
post Mon, 18 Jul 2011 - 10:13
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QUOTE (bama @ Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 16:34) *
post up the exact text that you sent them.

Thanks bama for your help, i have posted two letters in which i fully admitted parking there, i explained fully the circumstances and expressed that the council was accountable as they had caused this situation by not imforming me of the changes they made. I did say that i was reluctant to pay as i didnt know if the company and ticket was legal, so i then said just take me to court and i will obey any judgements made by he courts. I did say that the charges where excessive as the losses where only 50p. Thanks everybody for helping, its extremely appreciated. kmr
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