PCN Parked in Suspended Bay Birmingham City Centre Options

[Real Slim Shady]

Hope I can get some advice. My wife was driving on 22/11/19 , parked up on Tennant street, as other cars were parked there, checked pay meter but didn't need to pay as after 6pm.

She saw a cone ahead and temporary traffic lights ahead so assumed any restrictions were in front of her ahead. There was a sign to a lamppost ahead of her which she did not see as she did not drive past it or walk past it. When she came back to car she saw fine on her windscreen and took pics of her car as she thought she parked ok as no yellow lines etc.

The sign stated 2 bays suspended.

I attach images of the PCN, the council's images, and images my wife took.

Need to draft challenge for tomorrow as will be 14 days. Any advice appreciated.

PCN




Council's Evidence






Wife's photos (she went back next day and took pics of signs)







This post has been edited by Real Slim Shady: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 21:50

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[PASTMYBEST]

I cannot reconcile the single sign with the GSV

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4751887,-...3312!8i6656

This one appears to be the post for the two bays where was the single bay in relation to this

[Mad Mick V]

They seem to have got their dates wrong since under the DfT authorisation they can only suspend for 6 months:-

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-4536.pdf

Mick

[Real Slim Shady]

Yes you are right that is the lamppost where sign was attached to.

The single bay restriction is further up that road in the direction of your GSV
Tennant St
https://maps.app.goo.gl/5Ctt2annWuXA3xKz7

They seem to have got their dates wrong since under the DfT authorisation they can only suspend for 6 months:-

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-4536.pdf

Mick

Wow, that's amazing piece of information, thanks Mick

What about the council's pic of sign which is blurred, just because it's a crappy pic, but could one argue that sogn was not clear as handwritten and possible rain,/wear to sign etc??

[DancingDad]

I cannot reconcile the single sign with the GSV

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4751887,-...3312!8i6656

This one appears to be the post for the two bays where was the single bay in relation to this

AS best as I can make out, vehicle was parked in the second of the suspended bays.
3 bays between that sign and the payment meter, vehicle behind OP vehicle but in front of meter.
And almost opposite the hotel car park entrance.

I'll admit, I got nothing that could fly.

[PASTMYBEST]

Here

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.4747178,-1....3312!8i6656

opposite side of the street?

[Real Slim Shady]

Here

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.4747178,-1....3312!8i6656

opposite side of the street?

Could possibly be, I wasn't with the wife, might have to pop down tomorrow morning and have a look to be sure before sending off appeal

I cannot reconcile the single sign with the GSV

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4751887,-...3312!8i6656

You are right, she was parked in suspended bay, I think she saw other cars parked which were outside the 2 bay suspension, she thought no yellow lines, after 6pm so doesn't need ticket , so she is ok to park. Appreciate help

This one appears to be the post for the two bays where was the single bay in relation to this

AS best as I can make out, vehicle was parked in the second of the suspended bays.
3 bays between that sign and the payment meter, vehicle behind OP vehicle but in front of meter.
And almost opposite the hotel car park entrance.

I'll admit, I got nothing that could fly.

[Mad Mick V]

----I'll admit, I got nothing that could fly.


You have, the sign is illegal and cannot therefore be used for enforcement purposes. Ergo the contravention could not have happened.



We've had success with this ground of appeal in the past.


Mick

[Real Slim Shady]

----I'll admit, I got nothing that could fly.


You have, the sign is illegal and cannot therefore be used for enforcement purposes. Ergo the contravention could not have happened.


Thanks Mick, I am going to use this and reply today


We've had success with this ground of appeal in the past.


Mick

[DancingDad]

----I'll admit, I got nothing that could fly.


You have, the sign is illegal and cannot therefore be used for enforcement purposes. Ergo the contravention could not have happened.



We've had success with this ground of appeal in the past.


Mick

The sign is not authorised for longer then 6 months.
Which means it is an unauthorised sign at best for the OP OR one that will become unauthorised in another 4 months at worst.
Plus elements of it are within TSRGD2016 for use in temporary situations and this is TPT who are often more pragmatic on whether or not a sign meets requirements.

I'm not saying don't go for it, I am saying I would not rely on that alone.
I would argue that signage is inadequate as there should have been one on the meter or meter pole.... that is where a motorist must go in Birmingham to check payment times. But again would not like to risk the discount on it.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 09:48

[Real Slim Shady]

Yes I agree that a sign should have been put by the parking metrr.

Must a time be mentioned on the sign. Or if all day state 24 hours?
They have written "INCLUSIVE".

Do you guys think that is adequate?

[DancingDad]

Go with that signage was inadequate IMO... Mick's on the sign can always be used if this goes to next stage.
But you may have missed discount, yesterday was last day, PCN date is day 1.
So you ought to check website and see if you can still pay at discount, if you can, IMO do, there is no guarantee council will re-offer if you challenge today and it is rejected.

If you do challenge, I would go with the apologetic.
Sorry, I saw a parking space with the area ahead coned off. Checked the payment meter and pole signs there and saw nothing on parking suspensions.
Only after the event did I reaslise that there was a suspension sign on the further pole and that the coned area should have included where I was parked.
Given the confusing situation, lack of cones and lack of suspension signs by the payment machine, which is the one place you can expect anyone to look, please cancel in this instance
Hugs and Kissed

No times mean 24/7 BTW, standard convention.

[Real Slim Shady]

Thanks, just checked it is still half price £35 fine on website. So will appeal and fails then still should be half price fine, hopefully

[Real Slim Shady]

AS best as I can make out, vehicle was parked in the second of the suspended bays.
3 bays between that sign and the payment meter, vehicle behind OP vehicle but in front of meter.
And almost opposite the hotel car park entrance.

I'll admit, I got nothing that could fly.

One last query, you are right she was in the second bay of the three bays between sign and meter.

Do you think the sign is adequate "2 bays suspended " with an arrow. Is it a point to raise which 2 bays, the first two, the two in the middle etc. Do you think that's valid point? Thanks

[DancingDad]

Was thinking that myself last night but decided it probably was.
No guarantee that an adjudicator may decide inadequate as could have said First Two Bays or similar to make it clearer.
But at the moment you have to decide what to go with.
IMO it is the apologetic with question marks on the adequacy of signage, basically to set them up for more detailed if they cock up any rejection.
But apologetic to hopefully not put their backs up at this stage... possibly a forlorn hope but I reckon gives the best chance of a sympathetic cancellation.
Would not work with more avaricious authorities, may here.

To me the cones not being in that bay actually give the best chance...I drafted an outline earlier BTW.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 15:38

[Real Slim Shady]

Thanks will go with that angle first, really appreciate the advice from all you guys.

[Real Slim Shady]

UPDATE: Rejected.

So I wrote apologetic letter as per dancing dad format above and this was declined, council letter attached.

From this thread only new points we can raise are date on sign is incorrect longer than 6 months as per Mad Micks post and sign doesn't clearly state which 2 bays suspended.

Please advice next steps, pay up £35 (as still half price) or appeal take it further
https://ibb.co/R4gkk8s
https://ibb.co/9ptv98X
https://ibb.co/JK1zV05

This post has been edited by Real Slim Shady: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 - 13:18

[DancingDad]

Got a copy of what you wrote ?

[Real Slim Shady]

I replied on the council's online form ( and assumed they would send an automated acknowledgement email with what I had wrote) but nothing received and naively did not save what I wrote.

My reply was basically based on your apologetic template above, just added that you can see the direction the car was facing I came from the other direction and did not pass the sign as parked up before it.

Was dark, single female alone so quickly checked the meter and walked onto destination. The cones were in front so assumed any restrictions were ahead. Other cars were parked there as well.

[cp8759]

Ask the council for a copy of your representation. The DPA reference is likely nonsense and there's an unlawful fettering of discretion in the rejection, this is a procedural impropriety.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 - 21:35