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County Court Telephone Mediation Appointment with BW Legal - Please advise.
Dan104
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 14:41
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This is concerning an NCP Unpaid Parking Charge Court Mediation with BW Legal Appointment in 2 weeks time

Alleged contravention was in April 2018

We have also both completed the Directions questionnaire.

There claim is basically stating I did not pay the parking charge fee.

Amount claimed and interest £178.08

Court fee £25

Solicitor Costs £50

Total £253.08

To give you a better idea...

My defence to the claim is as follows...

There was no need for the Claimant to have issued a County Court
claim, as there has never been a denial on my part to pay the car
park fee.

There was no deliberate act to avoid payment of the parking fee

The machine I tried to use was out of order.

I have never refused to make the initial parking fee payment.

I have written offering to pay the parking fee charge which was
refused by the claimant

The claimant's claim is for an unfair excessive amount and costs.

I have wrote to the claimant and its agents via recorded delivery
(signed for) on several occasions in trying to resolve the matter.
They have either not responded or have never answered my questions
and issues raised.

I have never been supplied with photographic evidence of any
displayed signage of the parking terms and conditions in a clear
and legible manner, and showing that the areas and parking zones
were fully lit, with adequate lighting in place, prior to or on
the actual date and time of the alleged parking contravention.

There was inadequate car park lighting in place at the time of the
alleged parking contravention, despite it being a wet and dark
evening.

There has been no confirmation of who the actual driver was at the
time of the alleged contravention, just a parking charge notice
issued to the vehicle registered keeper.

I have not been shown any photographic evidence of any other
working car park pay machine that were in place on the site,
prior to, or at the time and date of the alleged parking
contravention.

The Claimant and representative have failed to address all the
issues that I have raised, or supplied me with requested
information. This shows that the claimant has not followed the
legal requirements under the Freedom of Information Act.

The only photographic evidence of signage that they have supplied to me was
dated July 2018 when the alleged contravention was actually in the April 2018.

Please advise me, and what do you suggest I should negotiate at the Mediation.

Also if mediation does not resolve the issue, and should they decide to proceed to a court hearing,
Is it true that there is a cap of £200 in what I would have to pay them should I loose
the case..
​​​​​​​
Thank you.


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DKnight
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post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 14:41
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Jlc
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 15:08
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Cap of £200? Nope.

I wouldn't bother with remediation - they will want the lot. (Or close to it)

How is the extra above £100 classified?

And you've clearly revealed the driver - as they don't use PoFA that angle has gone.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 15:10


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Slithy Tove
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 15:34
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QUOTE (Dan104 @ Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 15:41) *
Amount claimed and interest £178.08
How is this made up, considering the original charge would have been around £100?
QUOTE (Dan104 @ Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 15:41) *
The Claimant and representative have failed to address all the
issues that I have raised, or supplied me with requested
information. This shows that the claimant has not followed the
legal requirements under the Freedom of Information Act.
Freedom of Information Act is irrelevant, that is only for public bodies.
Did you submit a Subject Access Request against NCP?

[quote name='Dan104' date='Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 15:41' post='1521846']
Offer the original parking fee as you did before and not a penny more.
Mediation is normally pointless as they won't budge from what they are claiming.

This post has been edited by The Slithy Tove: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 15:37
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Dan104
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 17:22
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NCP past it to a company called Trace and that's when it went up to £160. Then it was past onto this BW Legal

I did not ask for a SAR

I don't think i have revealed the driver, only that i was the registered keeper.

So does it look like court. I am sure i have read on other websites that the court only awards a maximum of £200 to the company

This post has been edited by Dan104: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 17:23


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DKnight
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The Rookie
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 04:04
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Well if you didn’t submit a SAR you won’t get it will you!

The court can award what they see fit, but if they are taking action against the keeper then it will normally be limited to £200.


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Dan104
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 09:30
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I think NCP was just taking over of the managing of the land so not everything was in place at the time, hence maybe why the machine was out of order.

I did send them a request for phonographic evidence of signage. They sent me the photos but these were dated in the July, which means there is no phonographic evidence to say the correct signage was displayed in the April.


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Dave65
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 13:53
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How is the first figure of £178.08 made up itemised?

They are not allowed to claim legal costs or debt collectors costs.
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nosferatu1001
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 18:09
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Crap defence.

It raises questions and makes you look unreliable, as you don't deny being the driver but then imply you are, what relevance does the lighting have if the machine was out of order? And so on.

You need a damned good FOCUSSED witness statement to fix this.

There is no cap of £200. You're making that up, or brutally misunderstanding
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Dan104
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 18:53
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In answer to the points raised in the last two replies...

I raised the issue about the lighting because they are saying that other machines were available and the signage clearly displayed.

The £178 is £100 unpaid parking charge plus £60 costs as set out in terms and conditions and £18.18 interest (at 8% annually) from 3/4/18 totalling the £178.08.

The interest charge is inaccurate anyway because BW Legal put it on hold for a while when i raised issues about the out of order machine and my unanswered letters that i sent to Trace the debt collecting agent.

This post has been edited by Dan104: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 18:54


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Jlc
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 19:03
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The interest is from the date of the 'debt' to judgment. (Normally at the usual 8% rate)

QUOTE (Dave65 @ Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 14:53) *
They are not allowed to claim legal costs or debt collectors costs.

But the BPA says they can... wink.gif

QUOTE
23.1b Where a Parking Charge becomes overdue and before
Court Proceedings have commenced, a reasonable sum
(which covers the cost of recovering debt) may be added
for the debt recovery fees. This sum must not exceed £70
unless prior approval from the BPA has been granted.


This post has been edited by Jlc: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 19:03


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Dan104
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 21:03
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Thanks guys,

so where do i go from here? Do i throw in the towel in and see if i can cut my losses at the mediation, or do I see it through to the court hearing and risk
it costing me more money.

I believe they have to make a court hearing payment to go to a hearing and they will incur more expense to travel to my local court.
Can they try and claim this back from me?

Thanks



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nosferatu1001
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 22:22
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Hearing fee can be claimed, IF they win. Only if you behave unreasonably can they claim anything more.

You must call out the £60 as an ABUSE OF PROCESS as it is double recovery. No deb charges were ever incurred by them.

Have you dad many other threads? You will be unprepared if you stay here.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 06:55
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They can add debt recovery costs IF it's included in the original contract (signage) AND they are not relying on PoFA which limits them to claiming from the keeper the original sum demanded and not an inflated one.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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Dan104
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 07:11
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The only evidence of signage, are the photos what they posted to me but they were dated July 2018, Can they rely on these pictures taken after
the alleged contravention happened, which was back in the in the April.

Can I use the argument that they not produced photos of the signage evidence at the time or prior to the alleged contravention.

Thanks


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The Rookie
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 07:23
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Balance of probabilities, the Judge will decide what they believe, if NCP say the signs haven't changed and these are the photos and you cannot say they weren't the signs and they have been changed I see no reason why the judge wouldn't believe them.... can you?

This is not proof to a criminal standard (which this would probably be OK for anyway) it's civil.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 09:01
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Rookie - it's double recovery because the Supreme Court says as such

The original charge includes a discount; that discount being lost must include the reasonable costs of recovery.
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Jlc
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 09:06
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...I will add that the BPA's paragraph makes no statement about the enforceability of the 'debt charge'.

It seems only ParkingEye doesn't seem to want to charge this lucrative add on. (Notwithstanding the fixed costs solicitor allowance of £50 - but at least that's allowed under CivPR) AIUI they only sue under PoFA, so the maximum amount would be that on the NtK (Usually £100).

This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 09:07


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Dan104
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 11:34
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Yes but Rookie, surely they need to show pics of the signs that were in place at the time of the alleged contravention, not some taken months later.

Not sure if there were any in place at the time of the alleged contravention as NCP was in the process of of taking over the management of the land from a previous company, plus the lighting was poor.

Maybe in hindsight the driver should of wondered around the car park looking for other pay machines but just assumed they were not up and running as yet, with this pay machine
being out of order.

Thanks

This post has been edited by Dan104: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 11:44


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The Rookie
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 11:38
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QUOTE (Dan104 @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 12:34) *
Yes but Rookie, surely they need to show pics of the signs that were in place at the time of the alleged contravention, not some taken months later.

Well as that is realistically an impossibility obviously not.

Like I said its what they can convince a judge of on balance of probabilities, there are no set 'rules' on the matter, if you can shed enough doubt the judge may not believe they are valid.

That's why signage should always be checked when you get a PCN so you have your own evidence.



--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Jlc
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 12:04
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No sniggering at the back, but the court will consider the parking company a legitimate operation following the respective Code of Practice.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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