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[NIP Wizard] Dubsox
Dubsox
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 16:02
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - May 2019
Date of the NIP: - 3 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 4 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A64(M) New York Road, Leeds, UNITED KINGDOM
Was the NIP addressed to you? - No
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - It’s my husband’s car
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I was driving my husband’s car and was caught by camera doing 50mph on a section of dual carriageway that’s 40mph. The NIP was sent to my husband as the owner and keeper of the car, he gave them my details and I received a standard conditional offer of 3 points and £100 fine. I’ve previously attended a speed awareness course but have no other points on my licence.

I fully intended to accept the COFP but completely missed the deadline. It’s my own fault - we’ve been renovating out house, we have a temporary mailbox and mail hasn’t been dealt with as it would ordinarily be but I accept that’s my responsibility and no excuse. But by the time I remembered it was a full 3 weeks passed the 28 day deadline. I logged on to pay the fine but the system wouldn’t let me. Same when I tried the automated line.

So I called the contact number and they confirmed that because the 28 days had elapsed the case has been moved on. I didn’t get the exact phrase but I’m really worried I’m heading for court with no further opportunity to settle the matter early.

I asked if there was anyone I could speak to and was told not. Eventually they gave me an email address which looks like the standard inbox for the WYP camera section. I wrote an email profusely apologising for the honest admin error, asking for the opportunity to settle before I was sent a court summons. This was 10th Oct, the day I realised. The following day I backed this up with a similar message by letter to the standard WYP camera section address. Again, hoping to resolve the matter out of court, accept the points and pay the fine and any further admin costs my delay might have incurred. I sent the letter out of desperation really as I had no idea who I should really be appealing to, and apologising in advance if doubling up with email and letter caused any confusion their end.

They will have received the letter just today and have had my email for over 2 working days.

My question is whether I have any hope of sensibly resolving this without the need to attend court? Do they usually threaten a court date but allow more time or have I had it? Should I be aiming an appeal to another department?

The thought of court terrifies me! Lesson very much already learned! Any thoughts on what to expect or how to appeal more effectively would be appreciated. Dreading a court summons dropping into my still temporary mailbox any day now.

Thanks in advance


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 16:02:35 +0000
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post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 16:02
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666
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 16:15
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First, no need to be terrified, you won't have to go to court.

It is unlikely in the extreme that your letter and email will have any effect, so eventually (probably in about six months time) you will recieve a Single Justice Procedure Notice from the court. This gives you the opportunity to plead guilty by post, and it will be dealt with in your absence.
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Jlc
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 16:27
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Indeed, this will all be dealt with by post...

It's a Band A fine so fine (for a guilty plea) of 33% of weekly earnings, costs of £85 and surcharge of 10% of the fine (min £30). It's still only 3 points.

You could ask for them to consider a fixed penalty equivalent sentence because it was an administrative issue unconnected with the offence itself - but that's an extremely long shot given you simply 'forgot'.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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NewJudge
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 16:43
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The court (or, in fact the "Single Justice" (SJ) who will be dealing with your matter) has the discretion to sentence you at the fixed penalty (FP) level. The guidance says this:

"Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances."

You will notice "..such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender,..." so you face an uphill struggle. However, a grovelling letter accompanying your plea sometimes works. You may find that the SJ will "split the difference" and fine you at the FP level (£100) but impose prosecution costs (£85). You've nothing to lose by such an approach.
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Dubsox
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 17:42
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Thanks so much for reassuring me I won’t need to attend court in person. That is a huge relief. It just seems a huge waste of their time to try me in my absence. Will they actually meet in a room and look at the photo of the car and discuss the case and come to an agreement? I feel terrible for causing all of that inconvenience. But if there’s nothing I can do to avoid that then I guess I’ll just sit tight.

When the SJ comes through will it be a form I just fill out and then add a supplementary letter explaining the oversight? At that point do I declare my earnings? Do people tend to take legal advice in these matters or just DIY? To be honest the outcomes suggested don’t sound too bad, I don’t have a huge income personally anyway.

Thanks again for the support
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The Rookie
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 17:48
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If you plead guilty the Single Justice will look at your case and decide sentencing based on the facts as written, they won’t look at any photo at all. him and a legal adviser for about 5 minutes..... hardly a burden!


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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Jlc
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 17:53
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QUOTE (Dubsox @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 18:42) *
When the SJ comes through will it be a form I just fill out and then add a supplementary letter explaining the oversight?

There's space to respond - post what you propose to say here first.

QUOTE (Dubsox @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 18:42) *
At that point do I declare my earnings?

When the SJPN arrives they will ask for these details.

QUOTE (Dubsox @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 18:42) *
Do people tend to take legal advice in these matters or just DIY?

For a guilty plea there's probably no need...

QUOTE (Dubsox @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 18:42) *
To be honest the outcomes suggested don’t sound too bad, I don’t have a huge income personally anyway.

There's a minimum figure of £120/week. (Or they will use £440/week if not supplied)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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666
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 17:54
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QUOTE (Dubsox @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 18:42) *
Thanks so much for reassuring me I won’t need to attend court in person. That is a huge relief. It just seems a huge waste of their time to try me in my absence. Will they actually meet in a room and look at the photo of the car and discuss the case and come to an agreement? I feel terrible for causing all of that inconvenience. But if there’s nothing I can do to avoid that then I guess I’ll just sit tight.

When the SJ comes through will it be a form I just fill out and then add a supplementary letter explaining the oversight? At that point do I declare my earnings? Do people tend to take legal advice in these matters or just DIY? To be honest the outcomes suggested don’t sound too bad, I don’t have a huge income personally anyway.

Thanks again for the support

There will be no discussion! The Single Justice procedure is designed to deal speedily with cases with a guilty plea. The single magistrate, with his legal adviser, simply decides on the sentence, and they tend to stick pretty rigidly to the guidelines (speed versus limit). Jlc has indicated the likely outcome.

You will have been asked to fill in a form about your earnings. Taking legal advice will make no difference, and will probably cost you more than the fine and costs!

QUOTE (Dubsox @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 18:42) *
Thanks so much for reassuring me I won’t need to attend court in person. That is a huge relief. It just seems a huge waste of their time to try me in my absence. Will they actually meet in a room and look at the photo of the car and discuss the case and come to an agreement? I feel terrible for causing all of that inconvenience. But if there’s nothing I can do to avoid that then I guess I’ll just sit tight.

When the SJ comes through will it be a form I just fill out and then add a supplementary letter explaining the oversight? At that point do I declare my earnings? Do people tend to take legal advice in these matters or just DIY? To be honest the outcomes suggested don’t sound too bad, I don’t have a huge income personally anyway.

Thanks again for the support

There will be no discussion! The Single Justice procedure is designed to deal speedily with cases with a guilty plea. The single magistrate, with his legal adviser, simply decides on the sentence, and they tend to stick pretty rigidly to the guidelines (speed versus limit). Jlc has indicated the likely outcome.

You will have been asked to fill in a form about your earnings. Taking legal advice will make no difference, and will probably cost you more than the fine and costs!
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andy_foster
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 18:02
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QUOTE (Dubsox @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 17:02) *
Date of the offence: - May 2019


They have 6 months from the date of offence to instigate proceedings. They cannot do this during the suspended enforcement period while an offer of a fixed penalty is open. Depending on when in May the offence was committed, a fresh 28 day suspended enforcement period would either leave them little time to instigate proceedings if the offer was not taken, or simply enable you to time it out.

It is not entirely obvious from your version of events how we got to being approx 5 months into the 6 month period to instigate proceedings, but I would suggest that the chances of being offered another fixed penalty by the SCP is about the same as such an offer being hand delivered by Lord Lucan, riding Shergar.


--------------------
Andy

"Whatever the intention of Parliament was, or was not, the law is quite clear." - The Rookie
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blackcross
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 18:35
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 18:48) *
for about 5 minutes


Possibly on a slow day... but a bog standard postal guilty with no prospect of disqual should not take that long to decide. Even having to result it on DMU should be possible in under 5 mins.
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Dubsox
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 18:53
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 19:02) *
QUOTE (Dubsox @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 17:02) *
Date of the offence: - May 2019


They have 6 months from the date of offence to instigate proceedings. They cannot do this during the suspended enforcement period while an offer of a fixed penalty is open. Depending on when in May the offence was committed, a fresh 28 day suspended enforcement period would either leave them little time to instigate proceedings if the offer was not taken, or simply enable you to time it out.

It is not entirely obvious from your version of events how we got to being approx 5 months into the 6 month period to instigate proceedings, but I would suggest that the chances of being offered another fixed penalty by the SCP is about the same as such an offer being hand delivered by Lord Lucan, riding Shergar.


I don’t have all the paperwork to hand but I think my husband was late in the first place sending in my details. Don’t suppose that puts us in a good light at all with regards to the admin 😬. But from what I can see:

14/05 date of offence
17/05 original NIP to husband
18/06 Final Reminder NIP to husband
Can’t find my NIP
19/08 conditional offer made
10/10 I realise my mistake and panic

Are you saying they must get the SJ out within 6 months of the original offence? And if they don’t the whole thing goes away? If so surely everyone would (intentionally) push the limits and improve their chances! Although I won’t hold my breath. I did the crime and deserve the punishment, I just didn’t need the heart attack of being in court!

Thx

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Jlc
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 18:55
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QUOTE (Dubsox @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 19:53) *
Are you saying they must get the SJ out within 6 months of the original offence? And if they don’t the whole thing goes away? If so surely everyone would (intentionally) push the limits and improve their chances! Although I won’t hold my breath. I did the crime and deserve the punishment, I just didn’t need the heart attack of being in court!

They have commence proceedings within 6 months of the alleged offence - you may receive any paperwork later than that. They rarely simply 'forget' to prosecute.

Yes, 'timeouts' can occur but are fairly rare nowadays as the SCP will send to court instead of issuing a CoFP that would exceed 6 months.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 18:56


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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disgrunt
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 10:57
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It’s a longtime since I’ve had a COFP but couldn’t you return it by post with a cheque? That way it might just get processed and save you the hassle of court?

I believe most people follow a POLR/Emethodology (path of least resistance /Effort)

You phoning up, least effort -“sorry, too late”
Receiving a completed form in post. Least effort process it, otherwise have to write letter to return it etc. It would also help with the argument that the COFP wasn’t taken up for administration reasons.

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cp8759
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 11:02
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QUOTE (disgrunt @ Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 11:57) *
It’s a longtime since I’ve had a COFP but couldn’t you return it by post with a cheque? That way it might just get processed and save you the hassle of court?

I believe most people follow a POLR/Emethodology (path of least resistance /Effort)

You phoning up, least effort -“sorry, too late”
Receiving a completed form in post. Least effort process it, otherwise have to write letter to return it etc. It would also help with the argument that the COFP wasn’t taken up for administration reasons.

+1, it's less hassle to just cash the cheque than prepare the file for court. There is no legal reason why they can't accept the cheque, endorse the licence and leave it at that.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 11:03


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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gilan02
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 12:01
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QUOTE (Dubsox @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 17:02) *
The NIP was sent to my husband as the owner and keeper of the car, he gave them my details and I received a standard conditional offer of 3 points and £100 fine.

Did YOU ever name yourself?
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Dubsox
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 12:13
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QUOTE (gilan02 @ Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 13:01) *
QUOTE (Dubsox @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 17:02) *
The NIP was sent to my husband as the owner and keeper of the car, he gave them my details and I received a standard conditional offer of 3 points and £100 fine.

Did YOU ever name yourself?


Yes I did. I responded to the original NIP sent to me after my husband had submitted my details

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 12:02) *
QUOTE (disgrunt @ Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 11:57) *
It’s a longtime since I’ve had a COFP but couldn’t you return it by post with a cheque? That way it might just get processed and save you the hassle of court?

I believe most people follow a POLR/Emethodology (path of least resistance /Effort)

You phoning up, least effort -“sorry, too late”
Receiving a completed form in post. Least effort process it, otherwise have to write letter to return it etc. It would also help with the argument that the COFP wasn’t taken up for administration reasons.

+1, it's less hassle to just cash the cheque than prepare the file for court. There is no legal reason why they can't accept the cheque, endorse the licence and leave it at that.


This is a great idea and very true about POLR! Unfortunately I haven’t had a cheque book for 10 years but will see how quickly my bank could print me one. It’s worth a try.

Thanks
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 17:38
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Go in and they can likely print you one there and then. Even quicker!
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Logician
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 18:37
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Is there not an account given for a bank transfer to save getting a cheque? If you actually pay them, they have to take action to repay it, they have to pay in a cheque, least effort is for them to take no action and accept the payment.


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cp8759
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 10:22
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QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 19:37) *
Is there not an account given for a bank transfer to save getting a cheque? If you actually pay them, they have to take action to repay it, they have to pay in a cheque, least effort is for them to take no action and accept the payment.

Well if you can pay by transfer then then definitely do so. If not, pop into the bank and see what they can do. Failing that, the Post Office still does money orders.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Dubsox
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 17:53
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UPDATE for anyone interested:

WYP have today written (via letter) in response to my email dated 10th Oct.

They say the contents have been noted but “as previously explained we are unable to reverse the process and any mitigation must be heard by a Magistrates Court. You will receive further documentation relating to the next steps, however this office will no longer be able to assist you with further correspondence as we are unable to deal with your mitigation. Thank you for your co-operation.”

With regards to paying and hoping - there is no direct transfer option. I’ve ordered a cheque book but this is likely to be another week in arriving. I can post the form and cheque as previously suggested but I fear at this stage the file has already left their office and they wouldn’t/couldn’t process the COFP paperwork anyway at this stage.

Looks like I’ll have to sit tight and wait for the SJ. From what I understand they have about 4 weeks to start the process as the offence date was 14th May. Is it fair to assume it’s timed out if I don’t hear by mid Nov? Sounds unlikely but if they have a backlog I could get lucky?

Otherwise it’s back to the guilty plea and I’ll let you guys know what I intend to write as mitigation.

Thanks

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