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Brum City Centre Park Watch PPC, Don't know if this is right
advicewelcome
post Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 09:33
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Managed to pick up a Parking Ticket from a private parking company on a Sunday afternoon in Brum City Centre.

Spoke to a delivery Uber eats driver at the time, he said he parks there all the time as they would need proper ANPR signage if they are enforcing.

Don't know if I have a leg to stand on?

The Kings Parade, Birmingham B4 7LN street location is here . You can see the signage and the cameras, but I can go take better pictures if need of the signs.

Attached the notices. Whatcha think? Not sure how to tackle it?







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post Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 09:33
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Umkomaas
post Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 10:01
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Your vehicle is parked on double yellow lines. Are you sure that is a private road with DYLs simply painted on, or part of the public highway, because on GSV, on the opposite of the road (disabled bays) there seem to be council notices showing? You should check with the council as to whether the road (particularly the point at which your vehicle is parked) is council adopted or private road. ParkWatch have previous for similar 'errors'.
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Sheffield Dave
post Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 11:13
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I'm finding it difficult to match up the photo with GSV. Was your car the black one with the doors open? And was it parked on the street side or the private side from the DYL? Was the vehicle parked for a decent length of time, as opposed to just dropping passengers off?
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advicewelcome
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 01:16
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QUOTE (Umkomaas @ Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 11:01) *
Your vehicle is parked on double yellow lines. Are you sure that is a private road with DYLs simply painted on, or part of the public highway, because on GSV, on the opposite of the road (disabled bays) there seem to be council notices showing? You should check with the council as to whether the road (particularly the point at which your vehicle is parked) is council adopted or private road. ParkWatch have previous for similar 'errors'.


Thanks, yes the car below is the car in question...




The driver probably parked the car in this location at the below position (so I guess this was on their land)?...



It may have been parked for 10-20mins, the driver is unsure.

If you look around at the street view image you can see the caged cameras attached to the building that the picture was taken with.

I am unsure if there is a defence that the signage is incorrect - or if there are any other grounds?

The signage seemed very simple and did not indicated anything around ANPR (if that makes any difference?).

This post has been edited by advicewelcome: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 09:14
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Umkomaas
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 10:48
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If the car was parked wholly on the road (as it appears to be on the NtK) then it's got to be worth contacting the council to check if the public highway extends right up to the red bricked area at the end of New Meeting Street, which, at face value, appears to be the commencement of the private land. The council DYLs at the start of the street extend, unbroken, along its whole length.

EDIT TO ADD

Here you go - page 89. Get on to the council to check as above.

https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/download/down...lic_expense.pdf

This post has been edited by Umkomaas: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 10:52
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Sheffield Dave
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 11:26
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Umkpmaas: I think the OP has established that the car was parked on the private land side of the DYL, not the public highway side.

At the entrance to that side street there a couple of council signs, one particularly prominent, warning that the off-street areas are private land and subject to clamping.
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Umkomaas
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 11:32
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QUOTE (Sheffield Dave @ Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 11:26) *
Umkpmaas: I think the OP has established that the car was parked on the private land side of the DYL, not the public highway side.

At the entrance to that side street there a couple of council signs, one particularly prominent, warning that the off-street areas are private land and subject to clamping.

Yep, got it. I was viewing the NtK photos as the car being parked on the public highway side of the DYLs, where on closer examination, the public highway is to the other side of the DYLs.

Thanks. smile.gif

This post has been edited by Umkomaas: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 11:33
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advicewelcome
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 18:53
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QUOTE (Sheffield Dave @ Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 12:26) *
Umkpmaas: I think the OP has established that the car was parked on the private land side of the DYL, not the public highway side.

At the entrance to that side street there a couple of council signs, one particularly prominent, warning that the off-street areas are private land and subject to clamping.


Yes, these below entrance signs are on the google street view, not sure if they are still there.

The bigger right(council looking) sign is probably still there...



The signage on the building walls seems to lack details (maybe inadequate?) - but am no expert...



The driver is loathed to pay PPC fines for pointing cameras.

Is there a way out?

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nosferatu1001
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 17:51
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The driver does nowt here. Never say they're doing anything past the day. You're dealing, you're the keeper or rk.

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Sheffield Dave
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 18:37
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We would need to see the actual wording of the signs. If it was restricted to e.g. permit holders only, and you weren't a permit holder, then you can argue that it was forbidding signage - it didn't offer you anything, so you couldn't have entered a contract, so you couldn't have breached it.

The NtK doesn't have a period of parking, which is a POFA fail.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 08:19
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Agreed, no keeper liability as there is no period of parking given in any way shape or form.

PoFA makes PoFA compliance almost impossible in that respect in every case (unless you accept that ANPR cameras give a close enough answer), but very difficult in cases identified by a person (rather than ANPR cameras).


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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advicewelcome
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 11:51
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QUOTE (Sheffield Dave @ Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 19:37) *
We would need to see the actual wording of the signs. If it was restricted to e.g. permit holders only, and you weren't a permit holder, then you can argue that it was forbidding signage - it didn't offer you anything, so you couldn't have entered a contract, so you couldn't have breached it. The NtK doesn't have a period of parking, which is a POFA fail.

.. will try and get the picture of the actual signage, but may take a few days to get back there to take pics. Am mindful that I have 14 days before the fine cost goes up.
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advicewelcome
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 12:04
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 09:19) *
Agreed, no keeper liability as there is no period of parking given in any way shape or form.
PoFA makes PoFA compliance almost impossible in that respect in every case (unless you accept that ANPR cameras give a close enough answer), but very difficult in cases identified by a person (rather than ANPR cameras).


Thanks. The notice has two pics. One shows the doors open and the other shows the car by itself. I assume this is a monitored CCTV with the operator taking the pictures at different times.

The notice indicates the incident time at 15.01 but not indicate time differences and thus length of any accused parking - is this a solid enough defence against this NtK?

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The Rookie
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 13:18
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QUOTE (advicewelcome @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 12:51) *
.. will try and get the picture of the actual signage, but may take a few days to get back there to take pics. Am mindful that I have 14 days before the fine cost goes up.

When you'll almost certainly be paying nothing how does that affect anything?


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
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Umkomaas
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 17:57
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ParkWatch are in a bit of hot water at the moment (reported today). Whether this puts a dent in their proceedings for ongoing cases - and to what depth the ‘hot water’ - remains to be seen.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-50033861
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advicewelcome
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 21:02
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QUOTE (Umkomaas @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 18:57) *
ParkWatch are in a bit of hot water at the moment (reported today). Whether this puts a dent in their proceedings for ongoing cases - and to what depth the ‘hot water’ - remains to be seen.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-50033861


Thanks. Good news.

"Park Watch, a trading name of Defence Systems Ltd, said it would have made all the necessary checks on its identity before it was allowed to issue any tickets. The BPA is investigating and will consider sanctions which could include expelling companies. The DVLA said it had already suspended All Parking Services so it can no longer issue parking tickets, but refused to comment on the conduct of Park Watch."

... but it seems that Park Watch are still operating as BPA not taking any direct action - thus the issued ticket is going to get enforced by them?


QUOTE (Sheffield Dave @ Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 19:37) *
We would need to see the actual wording of the signs. If it was restricted to e.g. permit holders only, and you weren't a permit holder, then you can argue that it was forbidding signage - it didn't offer you anything, so you couldn't have entered a contract, so you couldn't have breached it. The NtK doesn't have a period of parking, which is a POFA fail.


Signs stuck to the buildings below, not sure if they assist in any way as well...




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advicewelcome
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 21:24
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 09:19) *
Agreed, no keeper liability as there is no period of parking given in any way shape or form. PoFA makes PoFA compliance almost impossible in that respect in every case (unless you accept that ANPR cameras give a close enough answer), but very difficult in cases identified by a person (rather than ANPR cameras).


I took a look at the POFA guidance:

8. A notice to keeper has been given that contains the following mandatory information:
- Which car the ticket relates to
- What land the car was parked on
- The period the car was parked
- Advise that the driver is liable for the parking charge and the amount and that it has not been paid in full
- State whether a notice to the driver was given either to the driver or placed on the vehicle and if so to repeat the information in that notice about paying the parking charge and when
- Specify the outstanding amount of the parking charge and of the maximum additional costs they may seek to recover, and of the dispute resolution arrangements
- Invite the registered keeper to pay the outstanding parking charge or, if he was not the driver, to provide the name and address of the driver and to pass a copy of the notice on to that driver
- Identify the “creditor” who is legally entitled to recover the parking charge
- Warn the keeper that if the parking charges remains outstanding after 28 days and the name and address of the driver has not been given, or otherwise known to the person entitled to the parking charge, that “creditor” will be entitled to recover the parking charge from the registered keeper.
- Details of the discount for payment within 14 days,
- Date of the notice



... as there was no period of parking time indicated, does this mean:

(1) I can throw this all away and dump any collection agent letters? (whoppee)
(2) Need to appeal on the above grounds which means the fine will be invalidated?
(3) Appeal and have Park Watch counter with further evidence and then face £100 fine?

Welcome any guidance?



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advicewelcome
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 11:30
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QUOTE (advicewelcome @ Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 22:24) *
... as there was no period of parking time indicated, does this mean:
(1) I can throw this all away and dump any collection agent letters? (whoppee)
(2) Need to appeal on the above grounds which means the fine will be invalidated?
(3) Appeal and have Park Watch counter with further evidence and then face £100 fine?
Welcome any guidance?


Lost paying reduced £60 squids option today... but sounds like I have a valid appeal. wink.gif

Do appeal to PPC within 28 days and ask for POPLA number?... then go through the POPLA motions?





This post has been edited by advicewelcome: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 11:35
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 22 Oct 2019 - 07:08
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Yes you appeal.
WIth a BPA member appealing is pretty much the default....
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advicewelcome
post Tue, 12 Nov 2019 - 18:39
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 22 Oct 2019 - 08:08) *
Yes you appeal. WIth a BPA member appealing is pretty much the default....

Ta. Sent them an email appeal and got this back...

04 November 2019
Thank you for your email. I can confirm that your appeal has been received and you will receive a response within 35 days. Please provide any evidence you have to support your appeal, such as a valid disabled badge, evidence of purchases and proof of delivery. Please note, you must include your parking charge notice reference number and vehicle registration mark in order for us to process your appeal. Your PCN, and the associated charges will be placed on hold until a decision has been made and communicated to you.

*Important information*;

We endeavour to review and respond to appeals within 10 days. Your appeal response will not be sent from this mailbox, it is the appellant's responsibility to ensure their mailbox/junk box is checked daily to ensure you have the opportunity to pay at the reduced rate within 14 days if your appeal is rejected. After 14 days the charge will revert back to the original amount.

Please note; POPLA verification codes are live for 28 days only.

Kind Regards,

Park Watch


...assume I just wait around until they get around to replying
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